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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 28 Mar 22 12.53pm
Originally posted by silvertop Trouble is, the flow of information in Russia is so controlled, they have no idea. If this narrative goes in the direction currently predicted, Russian troops will leave Ukraine having annexed Donbas but having been roundly humiliated elsewhere and leaving a city with the population of Manchester in rubble. Sale to the people will be they have liberated the native Russians in Donbas, consolidated their hold in Crimea, de-nazified Ukraine and forced them to agree to abasing terms on security and alliances. The problem they have is returning troops who will not confirm that story. However, it will be like those coming back from Nam. Initially the population will vilify anyone who complains as traitors and cowards and the truth will only out years later when it doesn't matter. I know what you mean, but I wonder if it will really be possible in the age of the internet to keep the lid on the truth for that long? Added to that, although I suspect there will be an easing of economic sanctions, because of the damage they do to us, I cannot imagine an easing of cultural, social and sporting sanctions whilst the Putin regime remains in power. This was a step far too far to just be forgotten. Putin's Russia will remain a pariah until he is removed. That means, I hope and expect, that the people will start to question why that is. They will no doubt be fed a diet of propaganda about the big bad west, but will everyone swallow it? I think Putin has made a serious miscalculation, but that also makes him a dangerous man going forward. Finding the right balance between the sticks and the carrots isn't going to be easy, so we need to maintain this level of coordination and unanimity in the coming years. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 28 Mar 22 12.53pm

Originally posted by silvertop

Trouble is, the flow of information in Russia is so controlled, they have no idea.

If this narrative goes in the direction currently predicted, Russian troops will leave Ukraine having annexed Donbas but having been roundly humiliated elsewhere and leaving a city with the population of Manchester in rubble.

Sale to the people will be they have liberated the native Russians in Donbas, consolidated their hold in Crimea, de-nazified Ukraine and forced them to agree to abasing terms on security and alliances.

The problem they have is returning troops who will not confirm that story. However, it will be like those coming back from Nam. Initially the population will vilify anyone who complains as traitors and cowards and the truth will only out years later when it doesn't matter.

I know what you mean, but I wonder if it will really be possible in the age of the internet to keep the lid on the truth for that long?

Added to that, although I suspect there will be an easing of economic sanctions, because of the damage they do to us, I cannot imagine an easing of cultural, social and sporting sanctions whilst the Putin regime remains in power. This was a step far too far to just be forgotten. Putin's Russia will remain a pariah until he is removed. That means, I hope and expect, that the people will start to question why that is. They will no doubt be fed a diet of propaganda about the big bad west, but will everyone swallow it?

I think Putin has made a serious miscalculation, but that also makes him a dangerous man going forward. Finding the right balance between the sticks and the carrots isn't going to be easy, so we need to maintain this level of coordination and unanimity in the coming years.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 30 Mar 22 11.28am
There's an concerning issue here that I haven't seen raised here but that could have serious consequences for us here in the west. We are sending huge numbers of arms into Ukraine. I'm conflicted with this because I support their ability to fight the invasion. However the reality is that the Ukraine has many criminal gangs and there are serious weapons going in here....stingers, anti tank, portable anti air....Great if it's just in the hands of a professional army. However, anyone who is following this knows that civilian and foreign volunteers are a significant part of the resistance. So what happens with these weapons after this war? There's no administration to track who has what.....stuff is going to be sold on and there are many terrible people willing to use them. This could and probably will come back to bite us. We could be seeing terrorists getting hold of serious weaponry here....civilian airplanes shot out of the sky using anti air that we supplied to Ukraine is an awful consequence to think about. Too late now, but as I haven't seen it mentioned....I thought I'd mention it. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

30 Mar 22 11.28am

There's an concerning issue here that I haven't seen raised here but that could have serious consequences for us here in the west.

We are sending huge numbers of arms into Ukraine. I'm conflicted with this because I support their ability to fight the invasion. However the reality is that the Ukraine has many criminal gangs and there are serious weapons going in here....stingers, anti tank, portable anti air....Great if it's just in the hands of a professional army. However, anyone who is following this knows that civilian and foreign volunteers are a significant part of the resistance. So what happens with these weapons after this war?

There's no administration to track who has what.....stuff is going to be sold on and there are many terrible people willing to use them.

This could and probably will come back to bite us. We could be seeing terrorists getting hold of serious weaponry here....civilian airplanes shot out of the sky using anti air that we supplied to Ukraine is an awful consequence to think about.

Too late now, but as I haven't seen it mentioned....I thought I'd mention it.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Palace Old Geezer Midhurst 30 Mar 22 1.29pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays There's an concerning issue here that I haven't seen raised here but that could have serious consequences for us here in the west. We are sending huge numbers of arms into Ukraine. I'm conflicted with this because I support their ability to fight the invasion. However the reality is that the Ukraine has many criminal gangs and there are serious weapons going in here....stingers, anti tank, portable anti air....Great if it's just in the hands of a professional army. However, anyone who is following this knows that civilian and foreign volunteers are a significant part of the resistance. So what happens with these weapons after this war? There's no administration to track who has what.....stuff is going to be sold on and there are many terrible people willing to use them. This could and probably will come back to bite us. We could be seeing terrorists getting hold of serious weaponry here....civilian airplanes shot out of the sky using anti air that we supplied to Ukraine is an awful consequence to think about. Too late now, but as I haven't seen it mentioned....I thought I'd mention it. Fair point Stirling. Just another worrying aspect of this pitiful war. We have to hope that some of the small signs of this war slowing down will develop into a complete cessation. Somehow, I remain sceptical that this will happen and that Putin has another agenda. What a vicious, spiteful gangster he has proved to be. Dad and I watched games standing on the muddy slope of the Holmesdale Road end. He cheered and I rattled.
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Palace Old Geezer

Midhurst 30 Mar 22 1.29pm

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Originally posted by Stirlingsays

There's an concerning issue here that I haven't seen raised here but that could have serious consequences for us here in the west.

There's no administration to track who has what.....stuff is going to be sold on and there are many terrible people willing to use them.

Too late now, but as I haven't seen it mentioned....I thought I'd mention it.

Fair point Stirling. Just another worrying aspect of this pitiful war. We have to hope that some of the small signs of this war slowing down will develop into a complete cessation. Somehow, I remain sceptical that this will happen and that Putin has another agenda. What a vicious, spiteful gangster he has proved to be.

Dad and I watched games standing on the muddy slope of the Holmesdale Road end. He cheered and I rattled.

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Mar 22 4.09pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 The West to blame here. The Nasty Aggressive Threatening Organisation - NATO. Hysterical media spoon-fed by warmongering politicians. Putin is not actually asking for much. Withdrawal of NATO forces from their border. Russia wants NATO off their backs, actually don't we? We should end all sanctions and get Russia back into the G8. Here's the thing Steeleye. Russia could have become much closer to the West had it followed the same path as when Gorbachev and Yeltsin were in control. Sadly, it fell into the hands of Putin and his cronies. When Russia is once again ruled by wiser men, rather than gangsters, then perhaps the door will open once again. It is in every European's interest for Europe east and west to be united when we face the world's future problems. This does not mean we all have to join a particular club, but that we all have mutual interests and a desire for continued peace.
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Mar 22 4.09pm

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Originally posted by steeleye20

The West to blame here.

The Nasty Aggressive Threatening Organisation - NATO.

Hysterical media spoon-fed by warmongering politicians.

Putin is not actually asking for much.

Withdrawal of NATO forces from their border.

Russia wants NATO off their backs, actually don't we?

We should end all sanctions and get Russia back into the G8.

Here's the thing Steeleye. Russia could have become much closer to the West had it followed the same path as when Gorbachev and Yeltsin were in control.

Sadly, it fell into the hands of Putin and his cronies.

When Russia is once again ruled by wiser men, rather than gangsters, then perhaps the door will open once again.

It is in every European's interest for Europe east and west to be united when we face the world's future problems. This does not mean we all have to join a particular club, but that we all have mutual interests and a desire for continued peace.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 30 Mar 22 5.20pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays There's an concerning issue here that I haven't seen raised here but that could have serious consequences for us here in the west. We are sending huge numbers of arms into Ukraine. I'm conflicted with this because I support their ability to fight the invasion. However the reality is that the Ukraine has many criminal gangs and there are serious weapons going in here....stingers, anti tank, portable anti air....Great if it's just in the hands of a professional army. However, anyone who is following this knows that civilian and foreign volunteers are a significant part of the resistance. So what happens with these weapons after this war? There's no administration to track who has what.....stuff is going to be sold on and there are many terrible people willing to use them. This could and probably will come back to bite us. We could be seeing terrorists getting hold of serious weaponry here....civilian airplanes shot out of the sky using anti air that we supplied to Ukraine is an awful consequence to think about. Too late now, but as I haven't seen it mentioned....I thought I'd mention it. It's a new thought for me, and a concerning one. I hope Nato had it before me and has ways of tracking where each piece goes. That said, as there don't seem too many terrorist groups in Ukraine, the main worry must be criminal elements trading them. The Azov though might try to retain some. I don't though, think there was any realistic alternative. Terrorists always seem to be able to source weapons. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 30 Mar 22 5.20pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

There's an concerning issue here that I haven't seen raised here but that could have serious consequences for us here in the west.

There's no administration to track who has what.....stuff is going to be sold on and there are many terrible people willing to use them.

Too late now, but as I haven't seen it mentioned....I thought I'd mention it.

It's a new thought for me, and a concerning one. I hope Nato had it before me and has ways of tracking where each piece goes.

That said, as there don't seem too many terrorist groups in Ukraine, the main worry must be criminal elements trading them. The Azov though might try to retain some.

I don't though, think there was any realistic alternative. Terrorists always seem to be able to source weapons.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 30 Mar 22 5.23pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Here's the thing Steeleye. Russia could have become much closer to the West had it followed the same path as when Gorbachev and Yeltsin were in control. Sadly, it fell into the hands of Putin and his cronies. When Russia is once again ruled by wiser men, rather than gangsters, then perhaps the door will open once again. It is in every European's interest for Europe east and west to be united when we face the world's future problems. This does not mean we all have to join a particular club, but that we all have mutual interests and a desire for continued peace. Pinch me! I agree with all of this. Especially the bit about Europe being united. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 30 Mar 22 5.23pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Here's the thing Steeleye. Russia could have become much closer to the West had it followed the same path as when Gorbachev and Yeltsin were in control.

Sadly, it fell into the hands of Putin and his cronies.

When Russia is once again ruled by wiser men, rather than gangsters, then perhaps the door will open once again.

Pinch me! I agree with all of this. Especially the bit about Europe being united.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 30 Mar 22 5.59pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Here's the thing Steeleye. Russia could have become much closer to the West had it followed the same path as when Gorbachev and Yeltsin were in control. Sadly, it fell into the hands of Putin and his cronies. When Russia is once again ruled by wiser men, rather than gangsters, then perhaps the door will open once again. It is in every European's interest for Europe east and west to be united when we face the world's future problems. A huge opportunity was wasted. This does not mean we all have to join a particular club, but that we all have mutual interests and a desire for continued peace. The reason Putin took over is because Russia fell below the poverty line. It's not a particularly popular opinion but I blame the west for a lot of why we are here. That's not saying that Russia are anything great or good, but they were taken advantage of.....there was no good faith.....that's where I am after researching it anyway. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2022 6.00pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

30 Mar 22 5.59pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Here's the thing Steeleye. Russia could have become much closer to the West had it followed the same path as when Gorbachev and Yeltsin were in control.

Sadly, it fell into the hands of Putin and his cronies.

When Russia is once again ruled by wiser men, rather than gangsters, then perhaps the door will open once again.

It is in every European's interest for Europe east and west to be united when we face the world's future problems. A huge opportunity was wasted. This does not mean we all have to join a particular club, but that we all have mutual interests and a desire for continued peace.

The reason Putin took over is because Russia fell below the poverty line.

It's not a particularly popular opinion but I blame the west for a lot of why we are here. That's not saying that Russia are anything great or good, but they were taken advantage of.....there was no good faith.....that's where I am after researching it anyway.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2022 6.00pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 30 Mar 22 6.08pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle It's a new thought for me, and a concerning one. I hope Nato had it before me and has ways of tracking where each piece goes. That said, as there don't seem too many terrorist groups in Ukraine, the main worry must be criminal elements trading them. The Azov though might try to retain some. I don't though, think there was any realistic alternative. Terrorists always seem to be able to source weapons. Not this easily. There has been a load of high tech weapons entering the chain. I don't see how that's tracked and criminal gangs don't give a monkey's where money comes from.....what they care about is money and their own patch. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

30 Mar 22 6.08pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It's a new thought for me, and a concerning one. I hope Nato had it before me and has ways of tracking where each piece goes.

That said, as there don't seem too many terrorist groups in Ukraine, the main worry must be criminal elements trading them. The Azov though might try to retain some.

I don't though, think there was any realistic alternative. Terrorists always seem to be able to source weapons.

Not this easily. There has been a load of high tech weapons entering the chain.

I don't see how that's tracked and criminal gangs don't give a monkey's where money comes from.....what they care about is money and their own patch.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Mapletree Croydon 30 Mar 22 6.10pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays There's an concerning issue here that I haven't seen raised here but that could have serious consequences for us here in the west. We are sending huge numbers of arms into Ukraine. I'm conflicted with this because I support their ability to fight the invasion. However the reality is that the Ukraine has many criminal gangs and there are serious weapons going in here....stingers, anti tank, portable anti air....Great if it's just in the hands of a professional army. However, anyone who is following this knows that civilian and foreign volunteers are a significant part of the resistance. So what happens with these weapons after this war? There's no administration to track who has what.....stuff is going to be sold on and there are many terrible people willing to use them. This could and probably will come back to bite us. We could be seeing terrorists getting hold of serious weaponry here....civilian airplanes shot out of the sky using anti air that we supplied to Ukraine is an awful consequence to think about. Too late now, but as I haven't seen it mentioned....I thought I'd mention it. Just the same as Afghanistan so yes this had been clear to me. In Afghanistan the allies effectively donated a massive war chest of machinery, weaponry and ammunition when they ran away at such speed. Be worried.
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Mapletree

Croydon 30 Mar 22 6.10pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

There's an concerning issue here that I haven't seen raised here but that could have serious consequences for us here in the west.

There's no administration to track who has what.....stuff is going to be sold on and there are many terrible people willing to use them.

Too late now, but as I haven't seen it mentioned....I thought I'd mention it.

Just the same as Afghanistan so yes this had been clear to me. In Afghanistan the allies effectively donated a massive war chest of machinery, weaponry and ammunition when they ran away at such speed. Be worried.

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georgenorman 30 Mar 22 6.18pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays The reason Putin took over is because Russia fell below the poverty line. It's not a particularly popular opinion but I blame the west for a lot of why we are here. That's not saying that Russia are anything great or good, but they were taken advantage of.....there was no good faith.....that's where I am after researching it anyway. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2022 6.00pm) You seriously believe that?
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georgenorman

30 Mar 22 6.18pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The reason Putin took over is because Russia fell below the poverty line.

It's not a particularly popular opinion but I blame the west for a lot of why we are here. That's not saying that Russia are anything great or good, but they were taken advantage of.....there was no good faith.....that's where I am after researching it anyway.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2022 6.00pm)

You seriously believe that?

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Mar 22 6.23pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays The reason Putin took over is because Russia fell below the poverty line. It's not a particularly popular opinion but I blame the west for a lot of why we are here. That's not saying that Russia are anything great or good, but they were taken advantage of.....there was no good faith.....that's where I am after researching it anyway. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2022 6.00pm) When Russia conceded the Cold War, it needed cooperation, and it got exploitation. It is a tragedy that an opportunity was wasted. The West might have played a part in that, but agencies within Russia were largely to blame. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Mar 2022 6.27pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Mar 22 6.23pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The reason Putin took over is because Russia fell below the poverty line.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Mar 2022 6.00pm)

When Russia conceded the Cold War, it needed cooperation, and it got exploitation.

It is a tragedy that an opportunity was wasted.

The West might have played a part in that, but agencies within Russia were largely to blame.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Mar 2022 6.27pm)

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Stirlingsays 30 Mar 22 6.45pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger When Russia conceded the Cold War, it needed cooperation, and it got exploitation. It is a tragedy that an opportunity was wasted. The West might have played a part in that, but agencies within Russia were largely to blame. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Mar 2022 6.27pm) Definitely, the Russian elites had a field day. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

30 Mar 22 6.45pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

When Russia conceded the Cold War, it needed cooperation, and it got exploitation.

It is a tragedy that an opportunity was wasted.

The West might have played a part in that, but agencies within Russia were largely to blame.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Mar 2022 6.27pm)

Definitely, the Russian elites had a field day.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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