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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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nickgusset  Shizzlehurst 13 Jun 16 10.16am |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Just seen a vote leave ad on this site, I hope for balance there will be a remain one too Here it is.
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Attachment: | jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jun 16 11.10am |
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Question is will England be out of the EU, before they're out of the Euros.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jun 16 11.19am |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It's about self determination primarily. I'm not sold on the idea that 'self determination' is presented even reasonably. The UK self determination is pretty much solid, with the EU capacity to affect that being somewhat limited to trade legislation that's largely pro-free market (i.e. the kind of legislation that the last 40 years of UK government have pushed). Personally, I object to a lot of the economic and corporate preference in the EU legislation, but its exactly the kind of s**t that every UK government since 1980, including Labour, have pursued. People seem to cite we cannot nationalise our train networks, as cause, as if any UK government would actually do that (Labour would lack sufficient support within its own party to push it through, and no conservatives would support it). People seem to think that pure self determination is in itself a good thing, it isn't, the value of self determination, is best served by having an independent third party to arbitrate between the rights of individuals and the authority of the state. For self determination to work, someone has to arbitrate. Traditionally that's better served by out outside entity, than one with involvement or interest in the final decision.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 13 Jun 16 11.56am |
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The focus in the media seems now, rightly or wrongly, to be focused on Immigration, and you can't argue that the working man on the street is fed up of being second rate in his own country. Please tell me as I'd love to know, how it is that we have ex serviceman, children, abused women, living on the streets, and yet a Syrian (or similar) refugee taking selfies with the latest mobile is prioritised as higher for housing etc. I have made proivsion for later in my life, and fingers crossed I won't need any help from the government in my dotage as I have made plans to keep me in fags beer and p*** However should I need the states help, having defended it for 25 years, you would think that housing me would be the least the government could do.... But no. for many soldiers who fall on hard times it's council waiting lists or privately funded charities that pick up the slack. but what really grips my s***, we have children living rough on our own streets, and yet we are worried about housing ahmed and co from syria who lets not forget are here ILLEGALLY, but they get the red carpet thrown out for them People have just had enough of this s*** and I for one don't blame them. And the quotas are just going to get worse if we stay in. Sorry but there is no valid argument apart from big business interests for us to stay. OUT
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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 Hrolf The Ganger 13 Jun 16 12.02pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I'm not sold on the idea that 'self determination' is presented even reasonably. The UK self determination is pretty much solid, with the EU capacity to affect that being somewhat limited to trade legislation that's largely pro-free market (i.e. the kind of legislation that the last 40 years of UK government have pushed). Personally, I object to a lot of the economic and corporate preference in the EU legislation, but its exactly the kind of s**t that every UK government since 1980, including Labour, have pursued. People seem to cite we cannot nationalise our train networks, as cause, as if any UK government would actually do that (Labour would lack sufficient support within its own party to push it through, and no conservatives would support it). People seem to think that pure self determination is in itself a good thing, it isn't, the value of self determination, is best served by having an independent third party to arbitrate between the rights of individuals and the authority of the state. For self determination to work, someone has to arbitrate. Traditionally that's better served by out outside entity, than one with involvement or interest in the final decision. This is not all about how we stand today but how we will stand tomorrow.
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| johnfirewall 13 Jun 16 12.21pm |
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The argument has virtually been reduced to 'do you want to stop people coming to Britain or do you want to be able to trade with Europe' as surely the trade argument is the least valid.
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 Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 13 Jun 16 12.45pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Question is will England be out of the EU, before they're out of the Euros.
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| DivingIsNotGood se25 13 Jun 16 1.00pm |
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England + Scotland + Wales = Great Britain Austria + Belgium + Bulgaria + Croatia + Cyprus + Czech Republic + Denmark + Estonia + Finland + France + Germany + Greece + Hungary + Ireland + Italy + Latvia + Lithuania + Luxembourg + Malta + Netherlands + Poland + Portugal + Romania + Slovakia + Slovenia + Spain + Sweden + United Kingdom = The United States Of Europe Germany, UK, France, Italy, Belgium, and Netherlands put in far more than they get out financially. With Germany and the UK putting in much much more than any other country. Sweeden, Denmark, Finland, and Austria also put in but barely anything compared to Germany and the UK. The remaining countries take monies out with Poland being the biggest receiver, taking out almost as much as Germany put in. Britain has done fine since prehistoric times without the EU and will manage perfectly well without them. Think of it as a marriage where the other half just takes takes takes. After so much time enough is enough and its time to move on, reward yourself and start living again.
VOTING OUT - Brexit will allow Britain to embrace the Commonwealth and be GREAT again |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jun 16 1.01pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
This is not all about how we stand today but how we will stand tomorrow. Interestingly, this is also why I'm voting out, not because I necessarily think the UK will be better off in my lifetime, but so as to at least obtain the capacity to make those changes that are necessary to the UK national interest. The EU should exist to facilitate the interests of member states, not to dictate corporate agendas. I doubt that any government is going to implement the reasons why I want to separate the UK from the EU, but it would at least retain that capacity for future governments who may be more socially orientated.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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leifandersonshair  Newport 13 Jun 16 1.02pm |
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Originally posted by johnfirewall
The argument has virtually been reduced to 'do you want to stop people coming to Britain or do you want to be able to trade with Europe' as surely the trade argument is the least valid. Not really. I quite want to see people coming to Britain, ideally young go getters with the skills to fill gaps in the employment market. And for me, trade with Europe beats 'pull up the drawbridge' 9 times out of 10 Both arguments equally invalid, as it isn't really as straightforward as an either/or scenario (although both camps want to portray it as this)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Jun 16 1.13pm |
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Originally posted by dannyh
The focus in the media seems now, rightly or wrongly, to be focused on Immigration, and you can't argue that the working man on the street is fed up of being second rate in his own country. Please tell me as I'd love to know, how it is that we have ex serviceman, children, abused women, living on the streets, and yet a Syrian (or similar) refugee taking selfies with the latest mobile is prioritised as higher for housing etc. Because that's what's been happening when you vote for governments that reduce spending. They cut funding to the kind of things that people don't pay too much attention to, like homelessness, child services, shelters etc. Where as obligations to refugees, are monitored and reported to the EU and UN. Asylum cases aren't so much fast tracked, as assured, and the provision of welfare benefit has to occur, because the UK prevents Asylum Applicants from working until such time as they're granted temporary or permanent leave to remain. As such, they don't fall into the numerous bureaucratic voids that exist in the welfare system specifically to prevent people being able to claim benefits. Public services account for spending cuts, by cutting funding that's either political unpopular (drug rehab) or relatively obfuscated as to be acceptable (womens refuge shelters or veterens). In the latter, typically the black hole exists in an argument as to 'who is responsible' - The MOD or the NHS / Dept of Welfare etc. An irony of this, is that people who are homeless cannot claim benefits, including housing benefits, for several months after they have a place to live, which of course prevents them getting a place to live (even if you are homeless because you're fleeing domestic violence, or have problems relating to military experiences) - The system doesn't care, you're 'homeless by choice' and as such, don't count as homeless. So its not so much that they're fast tracked, but they're represented in the statistics and data, and the UK is accountable for them to the UN and EU monitoring bodies.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| davenotamonkey 13 Jun 16 1.19pm |
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Originally posted by beagle
Could you not simply have said "There are ifs and buts because its's an economic projection" and left all the patronising insults out? Perhaps. When you've dealt with the wilful obtuseness of the likes of Kermit, and a complete unwillingness to actually accept a spectrum of opinion, it becomes exasperating. He was essentially arguing (as he continued to do in his follow-up) that an economic forecast from one side is any less a "leap in the dark" than a forecast from the other side. It is either intellectual dishonesty or complete ignorance. I'm not sure I care too much either way. So yes, I offer Kermit an apology and a shrug of the shoulders. He's made his mind up, and no alternative economic models nor dissenting opinion will change it. Likewise I. The difference is, I've formed my opinion from a spectrum of sources, weighted by their gains and vested interests. I'd also like to apologise to nickgusset for use of his Surname. I'll add I don't mind being called "Monkey", but it's a matter of preference. For the record, I at least find his replies (for the most part) more considered.
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