Is anyone who laughed at Jim Davisson’s chalky white jokes a life long racist.
I bet some on here preaching how bad others are would have chuckled at a joke which contains a racist connotation at some stage. No matter how low grade ( if it can be as asked prior!)
A little flagellation is required of said individuals with pictures so to cleanse oneself !

All valid points.

To build on your two bookends - of mistake to fanatical racist - There’s a sliding scale between those, sure. It’s also worth noting that you can hold racist views through ignorance, conditioning, conscious, sub-conscious or otherwise (mentioned in an earlier post, seems to have been missed). So yeah, obviously it’s not as simple as no gesture good, gesture bad.

However all we can ever go on is comparison with ourselves and our own experiences. A judgement call has to be made somewhere, somehow - having personal learned experience of this sort of thing (both levels of extremes) I’m afraid I have little time or sympathy for such actions, and to me it shows on probability a high likelihood of someone that is somehow ignorant or worse - you don’t just do that sort of thing randomly, out of the blue at that age. It becomes less excusable the older you get, and these two are hardly in their teens. Probability is key. Just because it could be a thousand other things personally if the probability in my view is high enough I’m not going to sit on the fence.

Logically the very fact they’ve both made said gestures demonstrates a level of acceptance. As for why that acceptance is present, sure that’s more nuanced but the fact others like you and I would never cross that line excludes a lot of the lower end explanations.

At a minimum it’s an example of something personally acceptable or ingrained (sub consciously or otherwise) surfacing as a result of lower inhibition. Now, obviously that doesn’t mean someone is racist to the core, but it does mean that some element of racism is acceptable to them either in that moment or otherwise, and it’s that crossing of the line considering their age, the environment and the current climate around racism that’s key here. You don’t just throw racist language or gestures around ‘by mistake’ these days. Sorry, I don’t buy that.

I might be more inclined to believe that it was more of a moment of madness if others in the crowd were doing the same, I could buy the tribal / herd mentality argument. But it wasn’t - it’s a personal, reactive decision based on some level of acceptance or normalisation.

I can’t know, but I certainly can presume in both these cases for the multiple reasons above that create a strong enough probability for me to make that presumption.

Edited by SW19 CPFC (11 May 2023 9.58pm)

That's my point, you are not in any position to make a personal judgement call regarding whether this guy at Spurs is, as far as he's concerned, engaging in a childish joke or whether he genuinely believes people of other races should be mocked for thier inferiority. Those two things are not only at wildly different ends of one particular spectrum, they can also, in some instances, be wholly unrelated to each other.

Immature, offensive, bullying, hurtful or inconsiderate humour is commonplace in many guises, whereas (even with anonymous ballets) voting for far right political parties is not. We must stop citing instances of the former as some sort of peek behind the curtain at people's desire for the latter. One can be linked to the other in some cases, but not so in others.

All you have to go on is the same thing the rest of us do, the photographic evidence. The rest you've brought to the table all by yourself, and that's my concern. The danger in that mindset is that the individual gets a punishment fitting not for the crime itself, but for a story we tell ourselves about the person based on our own simplified narrative, and refusal to accept that anything else could be true.

People are too complicated, variable and inconsistent for an episode like this to serve as a window into a man's mind and soul. He should get the appropriate punishment for what he actually did, but no more.

So accusing me of being presumptuous then immediately being presumptuous?

Yes I'm being presumptuous, but explaining why. It's not a knee-jerk reaction. It's a calculated assessment that I feel confident enough about to back in a debate.

Besides, I'd argue that you judgement is clouded by what appears to be some sort of personal connection, which brings emotion into it.

'Moral superiority' – so you're having a go here and calling me superior because I'm heavily criticising someone for demonstrably behaving in an immoral and racist manner (according to what I'd suggest is a generally accepted moral standard/judgement over what is racist in this country) then laying into someone (you) that's emotionally invested and appears to be trying to downplay the incident, or make excuses for it. I mean...

Also, your 'different people have different morals' half point... what are you saying here exactly? We should all be tolerant and open to everyones different interpretations of morality and the outcomes of such differences without criticising? Everybody's free to act however they want because everyone is entitled to different morals without judgement or critique? Because that sounds very left wing to me.

Comes across as though you're saying what is an observably racist action should be tolerable because 'different morals for different people'. Which is odd

This action isn't some sort of grey area up for debate – it's a racist gesture. Whether that means the person is a hardcore racist or is just comfortable enough with that particular flavour of racism to actually perform it in a heavily monitored public arena, (not exactly a secret that football games have cameras, and that racism is a thing) is up for debate, but as above you've got to make a call and that's where probability comes in.

As far as I'm concerned someone in a comedic setting telling jokes should be able to say whatever they want within the law, rather than the tendancy to retrospectively or in the moment snuff that out. Comedy can age badly, but is also of its time and worth viewing in that light. Part of comedy is that there is a 'moral risk' to points being made. There is an up and downside to that, and therefore if something doesn't land or isn't really a joke and more a dislike that may impact how its perceived. I'm sure for instance there are even some great 'jokes' to be made about amputees, but unless you're absolute craftsman of the art or well meaning person with a clever angle and point to make, and just blurt out something derogatory in front of a person, it will likely not be received at all well.

People go to a football match to watch the game though, not for a comedy night (though with some performances you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise) and not to stand next to someone doing a slitty eye 'joke' or say, going back to times of disgusting monkey chants or tossing bananas onto the pitch. These could all no doubt be called 'jokes', but clearly they're also targetted racist sentiment and aren't at all welcome in that setting. If we're saying there should be no response to them, that sends a message of encouragement. That clearly isn't acceptable, nor do most think it is. The lesson is for the individual to learn, not others.

Edited by footythoughts (12 May 2023 1.18am)