Erm. You signed up to More United. That is as tribal as any other political allegiance.
Since most of the people on the list are Labour MPs, one has to imagine that you are basically a socialist.

Wisbech that is your opinion not everyone agrees with it. Unless I am mistakened not one of the MPs who changed parties was re-elected they either retired or lost. You have an idealised version of what Parliament should be and in theory it would be great if it worked that way.

But as I just posted on the Brexit thread for example Labour's position to oppose any Tory Brexit deal before it had even been negotiated is the reality of Parliament.

Politicians are partisan and oppose the other side even when the other side is talking sense.

By all means continue to call for MPs to be independent of the party machine but you will be howling in the wind. I wish you luck it's not a bad thing if it ever happened.

A more realistic solution is to vote for independent MPs. I have a friend who is an independent councillor in Froome where all seats are held by local independent people and the public love it.

One more point

The parties have been around for hundreds of years. As has the system of the party whip. There have been some notable defections over the years - probably Churchill being the most high profile. They are the exception rather than the rule, however. People have always voted on party lines in Britain - often regardless of the MP.

Red and Blue Army!

Labour lost because they have become a Marxist cult and are followed and represented by people of the "quality" of Owen Jones, David Lammmy, Ash Sarkar, numerous vacuous celebrities and all manor of people that live rarefied and privileged lives and are totally out of touch with the rest of society (as they almost never mix with working class people) . The British people also have a 6th sense for sniffing out extremists (and were continuously insulted and demonized by those people already mentioned).

Tories won because they were the only Brexit party and Boris appealed to people who still consider themselves patriotic (i.e. most)

Lib Fems failed because they sum up all that's wrong with the hyper liberal virtue signalling elite and equally out of touch as Labour.

Christ knows why the SNP did so well, I'm very disappointing in the jocks.

I would dissolve the union, as David Starkey pointed out recently it's been a case of 3 tails (Wales, Ireland and especially Scotland) wagging the dog for years as England is over 80% of the UK population and is the only country without it's own parliament yet is also the economic powerhouse. All of those countries are a drain on our economy and have far more socialist tendencies (although I have sympathy and solidarity with Irish unionists).

We need a revival of the English constitution with the concepts of individual rights, the rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of association etc at the forefront of our thinking and education. These are the fundamentals that were key to creating the entire western modern world.

Most of all though we probably need a new youth counter culture of free thinking, facts and realism as our youth is currently lost to ideology.

I get the arguments for English nationalism but I also don't really trust my instincts that are most fired up by it.

Always thought it was the Elephant in the room and the one that could cause the most potential, and unpredictable, damage. Because it has been subdued for so long that it has effectively been allowed to fester albeit in perhaps a way that is more sub-conscious than any clearly rationalised.

Never really bought into all this faux-patriotism that our Celtic neighbours like to onaistically indulge on with all their stupid skirts and ludicrous Guinness hats. I would hate for us English to go the same way but I suspect that English nationalism would burst out in a way that nobody could really foresee and might be a precursor to some real upheaval. It takes centuries before barbarism becomes diluted enough to make it a tourist attraction.

One of my big fears about Brexit not happening was that English nationalism would have then become the only conduit of protest for millions of people. That faith in the British Parliamentary system would have been so undermined that there could be no logical or reasoned argument to be made for acquiescing to the electoral process anymore. If our votes on June 23rd could be so easily discarded, why bother anymore?

Perhaps I am a little guilty of hyperbole over this and am transferring my own feelings of complete rage about anybody who wanted to nullify the result from June 2016 but I suspect not. Because our system of democracy would have been fatally undermined.

The reality is England tolerates the smaller parts of the UK. Accepts them as the price to be paid for our shared history. We all have friends and family and even origins from all parts of it. And to be fair, we are richer and enjoy a much higher quality of life (if Scotland leave then us remaining members of the UK live for years longer on average).

We even owe a duty of care to the Republic of Ireland because despite all their hot air, they need us to sell into. We have enough of a shared history to mean that they do need looking after.

As things stand I would urge people to curb their understandable desire for an England that stands solely on its own two feet. Let's get Brexit done and see how matters pan out.

Leave was a UK wide vote. And as such, we need to take a UK wide approach to how it is handled. We need to wipe our mouths and move on, no matter how justified our rage and anger is.

Edited by Matov (16 Dec 2019 11.20am)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

1. Not sure I agree with that Becky. The number of remain voters exceeded the number of leave voters. However, first past the post (check the comparative votes per seat ratio) and the spread of remain among more parties created the illusion of a mandate.

2. Here you may be right. Also, the mood will never shift to re-joining an EU that is in disintegration, so it would be a moot point. For my part I hope the EU stays strong as a civilised force against an over dominant USA and a frightening expansive Russia. Both countries will be loving what has happened here.