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bilbo Flag 14 Nov 15 5.51pm Send a Private Message to bilbo Add bilbo as a friend

From those on the left with pie in the sky ideas about allowing extremist clerics to speak and therefore warp minds in our country, to others on the right who supported equally naive failed attempts to democratise the middle east, we've never really had a sensible way of dealing with this issue.

We don't 'get' that these cultures aren't like our own. Overthrowing Saddam and Gadaffi, and weakening Assad's regime through various channels has been a complete f***ing disaster. They aren't countries that can be controlled by rosy cheeked pleasant PMs. These dictators aren't the deranged figures they are painted to be, they behave this way as its the only way to rule there. With them in place at least these struggles were sometimes contained to regions and we also had a 'go to' to bargain with or put sanctions on when needs be. Now there is no such go to.

Where there are power vacuums, you are rewarded for being the most vicious c***s going and thats what we see now, then others begin to adopt this mindset through fear or a lust for power. This isn't a "aren't we terrible to invade this or that country" comment, that's already happened so the morality one way or the other is an irrelevance to this matter. It's an observation that we have acted against our own interests and safety in terms of foreign policy.

Where we are now our best bet would be to, alongside other countries, ramp things up in Syria against ISIS to extinguish the threat as much as humanly possible but not insist that Assad goes. He's the only show in town. I don't care who's in power as long as they can try to keep a lid on these b******s. We won't benefit by making the same mistake again.

At home, while we definitely need to ensure that we don't adopt a 'all muslims are the enemy' mindset or go overboard in placing restrictions on the entire population, we would be very wise to keep refugee restrictions in place and it's understandable if France and others do the same. It's just too risky to do otherwise and is placing idealism over the safety of the population.

 
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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 14 Nov 15 5.54pm

Quote bilbo at 14 Nov 2015 5.51pm

From those on the left with pie in the sky ideas about allowing extremist clerics to speak and therefore warp minds in our country, to others on the right who supported equally naive failed attempts to democratise the middle east, we've never really had a sensible way of dealing with this issue.

We don't 'get' that these cultures aren't like our own. Overthrowing Saddam and Gadaffi, and weakening Assad's regime through various channels has been a complete f***ing disaster. They aren't countries that can be controlled by rosy cheeked pleasant PMs. These dictators aren't the deranged figures they are painted to be, they behave this way as its the only way to rule there. With them in place at least these struggles were sometimes contained to regions and we also had a 'go to' to bargain with or put sanctions on when needs be. Now there is no such go to.

Where there are power vacuums, you are rewarded for being the most vicious c***s going and thats what we see now, then others begin to adopt this mindset through fear or a lust for power. This isn't a "aren't we terrible to invade this or that country" comment, that's already happened so the morality one way or the other is an irrelevance to this matter. It's an observation that we have acted against our own interests and safety in terms of foreign policy.

Where we are now our best bet would be to, alongside other countries, ramp things up in Syria against ISIS to extinguish the threat as much as humanly possible but not insist that Assad goes. He's the only show in town. I don't care who's in power as long as they can try to keep a lid on these b******s. We won't benefit by making the same mistake again.

At home, while we definitely need to ensure that we don't adopt a 'all muslims are the enemy' mindset or go overboard in placing restrictions on the entire population, we would be very wise to keep refugee restrictions in place and it's understandable if France and others do the same. It's just too risky to do otherwise and is placing idealism over the safety of the population.


Well said

 
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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Nov 15 5.55pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 5.16pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 14 Nov 2015 5.01pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.53pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.48pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.30pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.26pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.15pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.14pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 3.50pm


There will be groups and people from the Muslim community who in the coming hours and days will be on our T.V screens giving the Muslim response to these attacks. No doubt they will condemn these crimes, but ‘some’ will lay the blame squarely at the feet of Western foreign policy as being the cause of these crimes. Whatever the rights and wrong of Western foreign policy, there is simply no excuse for such violence; there certainly is no possible justification for such attacks in Islam. To speak only about foreign policy whilst diminishing the fact, or even excluding it entirely, that our faith is being hijacked is part of the problem and not the solution.

I'm extremely pleased people are expressing that sentiment.

It's just a shame that there are so many of your sort still blaming western foreign policy.


Expand on what you mean by 'your sort'

Well more specifically you, as I'd bet a grand you've alluded to the fact on here at some point.


Edited by johnfirewall (14 Nov 2015 4.26pm)


Are you saying western foreign policies haven't in any way affected the rise of the so called Islamic state?

Previously those remarks would have been made in response to attacks from preceding groups such as Al Queda who the west sought to take action against.

Are you saying that sort of mentality made from the perspective of western liberals with little consideration for peace is appropriate or helpful when moderate Muslims are dismissing such notions to focus on the fact that they themselves condemn the acts and dismiss such justifications?

Edited by johnfirewall (14 Nov 2015 4.49pm)


To my mind, ISIS are filling a vacuum left by interventions in Syria, Iraq and Libya for instance.

Whilst the intention of military interventions may have been to rid these countries of despots, it has backfired badly.

Obviously the rise of ISIS was not foreseen, however, it is still the result of Western actions

Edited by nickgusset (14 Nov 2015 4.55pm)

You seem to be suffering from something akin to Stockholm syndrome.
Over 200 people have just been killed or seriously injured and you want to bang on about our foreign policy suggesting that somehow these scum can claim some moral high ground.

Strange fellow.


Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.03pm)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.04pm)

Absolutely not. What happened is abhorrent. I'm also not saying they should have any moral high ground.
What I am saying is western actions have in part resulted in the rise of ISIS.

Also if you read the thread, the issue of Western intervention was brought up by someone else. I'm responding to that.

Edited by nickgusset (14 Nov 2015 5.18pm)

So by that logic, I blame the Romans.

Any action causes an effect. Should our policy always be to do nothing in case something bad happens ?

In any case, Islamic militants were attacking Western Targets well before Gulf War 1 or 2. Yhis is as old as the hills.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.56pm)

 
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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 14 Nov 15 5.59pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 14 Nov 2015 5.55pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 5.16pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 14 Nov 2015 5.01pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.53pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.48pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.30pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.26pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.15pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.14pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 3.50pm


There will be groups and people from the Muslim community who in the coming hours and days will be on our T.V screens giving the Muslim response to these attacks. No doubt they will condemn these crimes, but ‘some’ will lay the blame squarely at the feet of Western foreign policy as being the cause of these crimes. Whatever the rights and wrong of Western foreign policy, there is simply no excuse for such violence; there certainly is no possible justification for such attacks in Islam. To speak only about foreign policy whilst diminishing the fact, or even excluding it entirely, that our faith is being hijacked is part of the problem and not the solution.

I'm extremely pleased people are expressing that sentiment.

It's just a shame that there are so many of your sort still blaming western foreign policy.


Expand on what you mean by 'your sort'

Well more specifically you, as I'd bet a grand you've alluded to the fact on here at some point.


Edited by johnfirewall (14 Nov 2015 4.26pm)


Are you saying western foreign policies haven't in any way affected the rise of the so called Islamic state?

Previously those remarks would have been made in response to attacks from preceding groups such as Al Queda who the west sought to take action against.

Are you saying that sort of mentality made from the perspective of western liberals with little consideration for peace is appropriate or helpful when moderate Muslims are dismissing such notions to focus on the fact that they themselves condemn the acts and dismiss such justifications?

Edited by johnfirewall (14 Nov 2015 4.49pm)


To my mind, ISIS are filling a vacuum left by interventions in Syria, Iraq and Libya for instance.

Whilst the intention of military interventions may have been to rid these countries of despots, it has backfired badly.

Obviously the rise of ISIS was not foreseen, however, it is still the result of Western actions

Edited by nickgusset (14 Nov 2015 4.55pm)

You seem to be suffering from something akin to Stockholm syndrome.
Over 200 people have just been killed or seriously injured and you want to bang on about our foreign policy suggesting that somehow these scum can claim some moral high ground.

Strange fellow.


Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.03pm)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.04pm)

Absolutely not. What happened is abhorrent. I'm also not saying they should have any moral high ground.
What I am saying is western actions have in part resulted in the rise of ISIS.

Also if you read the thread, the issue of Western intervention was brought up by someone else. I'm responding to that.

Edited by nickgusset (14 Nov 2015 5.18pm)

So by that logic, I blame the Romans.

Any action causes an effect. Should our policy always be to do nothing in case something bad happens ?

In any case, Islamic militants were attacking Western Targets well before Gulf War 1 or 2. Yhis is as old as the hills.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.56pm)

Hypothetical I know, but do you think we would be where we are now if cheney + Co hadn't gone on a $40billion money making excursion (for Halliburton) into Iraq?

 
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elgrande Flag bedford 14 Nov 15 6.03pm Send a Private Message to elgrande Add elgrande as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 5.54pm

Quote bilbo at 14 Nov 2015 5.51pm

From those on the left with pie in the sky ideas about allowing extremist clerics to speak and therefore warp minds in our country, to others on the right who supported equally naive failed attempts to democratise the middle east, we've never really had a sensible way of dealing with this issue.

We don't 'get' that these cultures aren't like our own. Overthrowing Saddam and Gadaffi, and weakening Assad's regime through various channels has been a complete f***ing disaster. They aren't countries that can be controlled by rosy cheeked pleasant PMs. These dictators aren't the deranged figures they are painted to be, they behave this way as its the only way to rule there. With them in place at least these struggles were sometimes contained to regions and we also had a 'go to' to bargain with or put sanctions on when needs be. Now there is no such go to.

Where there are power vacuums, you are rewarded for being the most vicious c***s going and thats what we see now, then others begin to adopt this mindset through fear or a lust for power. This isn't a "aren't we terrible to invade this or that country" comment, that's already happened so the morality one way or the other is an irrelevance to this matter. It's an observation that we have acted against our own interests and safety in terms of foreign policy.

Where we are now our best bet would be to, alongside other countries, ramp things up in Syria against ISIS to extinguish the threat as much as humanly possible but not insist that Assad goes. He's the only show in town. I don't care who's in power as long as they can try to keep a lid on these b******s. We won't benefit by making the same mistake again.

At home, while we definitely need to ensure that we don't adopt a 'all muslims are the enemy' mindset or go overboard in placing restrictions on the entire population, we would be very wise to keep refugee restrictions in place and it's understandable if France and others do the same. It's just too risky to do otherwise and is placing idealism over the safety of the population.


Well said

That is a good post,but Did the most of the political sides agree that Saddam should be taken out,same with Gaddafi.
Yes I totally agree it has led to the rise of these f***ing retard nutters.
But I believe that it would have risen anyway.
These f***tards do not believe in western values,"all the time filming things on thier western mobile phones".
And they have always wanted Islam to be the world no1.
As I have highlighted the bit on your post that i find to be quite important....THEY DO NOT WANT OUR WAY OF LIFE.

 

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.
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elgrande Flag bedford 14 Nov 15 6.04pm Send a Private Message to elgrande Add elgrande as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 5.59pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 14 Nov 2015 5.55pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 5.16pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 14 Nov 2015 5.01pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.53pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.48pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.30pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.26pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.15pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.14pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 3.50pm


There will be groups and people from the Muslim community who in the coming hours and days will be on our T.V screens giving the Muslim response to these attacks. No doubt they will condemn these crimes, but ‘some’ will lay the blame squarely at the feet of Western foreign policy as being the cause of these crimes. Whatever the rights and wrong of Western foreign policy, there is simply no excuse for such violence; there certainly is no possible justification for such attacks in Islam. To speak only about foreign policy whilst diminishing the fact, or even excluding it entirely, that our faith is being hijacked is part of the problem and not the solution.

I'm extremely pleased people are expressing that sentiment.

It's just a shame that there are so many of your sort still blaming western foreign policy.


Expand on what you mean by 'your sort'

Well more specifically you, as I'd bet a grand you've alluded to the fact on here at some point.


Edited by johnfirewall (14 Nov 2015 4.26pm)


Are you saying western foreign policies haven't in any way affected the rise of the so called Islamic state?

Previously those remarks would have been made in response to attacks from preceding groups such as Al Queda who the west sought to take action against.

Are you saying that sort of mentality made from the perspective of western liberals with little consideration for peace is appropriate or helpful when moderate Muslims are dismissing such notions to focus on the fact that they themselves condemn the acts and dismiss such justifications?

Edited by johnfirewall (14 Nov 2015 4.49pm)


To my mind, ISIS are filling a vacuum left by interventions in Syria, Iraq and Libya for instance.

Whilst the intention of military interventions may have been to rid these countries of despots, it has backfired badly.

Obviously the rise of ISIS was not foreseen, however, it is still the result of Western actions

Edited by nickgusset (14 Nov 2015 4.55pm)

You seem to be suffering from something akin to Stockholm syndrome.
Over 200 people have just been killed or seriously injured and you want to bang on about our foreign policy suggesting that somehow these scum can claim some moral high ground.

Strange fellow.


Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.03pm)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.04pm)

Absolutely not. What happened is abhorrent. I'm also not saying they should have any moral high ground.
What I am saying is western actions have in part resulted in the rise of ISIS.

Also if you read the thread, the issue of Western intervention was brought up by someone else. I'm responding to that.

Edited by nickgusset (14 Nov 2015 5.18pm)

So by that logic, I blame the Romans.

Any action causes an effect. Should our policy always be to do nothing in case something bad happens ?

In any case, Islamic militants were attacking Western Targets well before Gulf War 1 or 2. Yhis is as old as the hills.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.56pm)

Hypothetical I know, but do you think we would be where we are now if cheney + Co hadn't gone on a billion money making excursion (for Halliburton) into Iraq?


Yes i do.

 

always a Norwood boy, where ever I live.
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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Nov 15 6.20pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 5.59pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 14 Nov 2015 5.55pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 5.16pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 14 Nov 2015 5.01pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.53pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.48pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.30pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.26pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 4.15pm

Quote johnfirewall at 14 Nov 2015 4.14pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 3.50pm


There will be groups and people from the Muslim community who in the coming hours and days will be on our T.V screens giving the Muslim response to these attacks. No doubt they will condemn these crimes, but ‘some’ will lay the blame squarely at the feet of Western foreign policy as being the cause of these crimes. Whatever the rights and wrong of Western foreign policy, there is simply no excuse for such violence; there certainly is no possible justification for such attacks in Islam. To speak only about foreign policy whilst diminishing the fact, or even excluding it entirely, that our faith is being hijacked is part of the problem and not the solution.

I'm extremely pleased people are expressing that sentiment.

It's just a shame that there are so many of your sort still blaming western foreign policy.


Expand on what you mean by 'your sort'

Well more specifically you, as I'd bet a grand you've alluded to the fact on here at some point.


Edited by johnfirewall (14 Nov 2015 4.26pm)


Are you saying western foreign policies haven't in any way affected the rise of the so called Islamic state?

Previously those remarks would have been made in response to attacks from preceding groups such as Al Queda who the west sought to take action against.

Are you saying that sort of mentality made from the perspective of western liberals with little consideration for peace is appropriate or helpful when moderate Muslims are dismissing such notions to focus on the fact that they themselves condemn the acts and dismiss such justifications?

Edited by johnfirewall (14 Nov 2015 4.49pm)


To my mind, ISIS are filling a vacuum left by interventions in Syria, Iraq and Libya for instance.

Whilst the intention of military interventions may have been to rid these countries of despots, it has backfired badly.

Obviously the rise of ISIS was not foreseen, however, it is still the result of Western actions

Edited by nickgusset (14 Nov 2015 4.55pm)

You seem to be suffering from something akin to Stockholm syndrome.
Over 200 people have just been killed or seriously injured and you want to bang on about our foreign policy suggesting that somehow these scum can claim some moral high ground.

Strange fellow.


Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.03pm)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.04pm)

Absolutely not. What happened is abhorrent. I'm also not saying they should have any moral high ground.
What I am saying is western actions have in part resulted in the rise of ISIS.

Also if you read the thread, the issue of Western intervention was brought up by someone else. I'm responding to that.

Edited by nickgusset (14 Nov 2015 5.18pm)

So by that logic, I blame the Romans.

Any action causes an effect. Should our policy always be to do nothing in case something bad happens ?

In any case, Islamic militants were attacking Western Targets well before Gulf War 1 or 2. Yhis is as old as the hills.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 5.56pm)

Hypothetical I know, but do you think we would be where we are now if cheney + Co hadn't gone on a billion money making excursion (for Halliburton) into Iraq?


I don't know, and that is why hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (14 Nov 2015 6.24pm)

 
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bilbo Flag 14 Nov 15 7.00pm Send a Private Message to bilbo Add bilbo as a friend

It's worth adding that we already have our brave special forces in Iraq fighting ISIS doing a great job. There are no regimes to topple so guerrilla warfare is the most effective fighting style and lacks the weaknesses of sending troops in. We should work with other nations to ramp that up significantly. The worry now is that we'll react with aimless raw might rather than strategy. Hopefully I'm wrong about that though.

 
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Mr Palaceman Flag 14 Nov 15 7.00pm Send a Private Message to Mr Palaceman Add Mr Palaceman as a friend

Quote palace_in_frogland at 14 Nov 2015 3.19pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 3.15pm

Quote palace_in_frogland at 14 Nov 2015 3.09pm

Quote serial thriller at 14 Nov 2015 2.30pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 14 Nov 2015 10.35am

RIVERS OF BLOOD.......... Enoch Powell..... April 1968.

He was laughed at, shouted down even... and here we are nearly 50 years later talking about the very things he predicted happening in Paris.

Jimenez was correct at the beginning of this thread... we are at war........ with Islam Kermit.

Not just a few religious zealots or fundamentalists but with Islam itself... the whole ideology!

Islam calls itself the religion of peace, but the holy Koran directs it's followers to kill all infidels (unbelievers)... but we hear so often that most followers don't take this as a literal instruction. Why have it in there then? How many other religions have such a clear message in it's scriptures to direct people to kill? The Holy Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill"... I'm not clued up on all religions though, but I doubt any others encourage bloodshed?

Why do we tolerate the way Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens, forcing them to dress in Burkhas. denying them education and just being servants to the males? Female Genital Mutilation FFS!

Why are they living here in a culture that is alien to their preachings... no alcohol, gay and lesbians, non halal meat eaters?

These people that carried out tonight's atrocities were highly trained and part of a network that has been helped by the Paris/French Muslim community. They could not have carried out this level of terrorism without the so called moderates being aware of what was going down. Of course now we will hear from the Muslim Council of Great Britain (and/or their French counterparts)decrying the act and how it offends Muslims and their faith.

We are at war and we need to adopt the same mindset of Churchill during WWII and start interning again those Muslims preaching hate rather than releasing them because Liberal namby pambys think it's a crime to do so. We also need to sort out ISIS (or whatever they call themselves) killing and destroying people and historical religious property in Syria and everywhere else they operate around the globe. Shut down their websites glorifying their deeds and attempts to radicalise and recruit young minds.

Do we want blood on our streets?

Luckily we were not as stupid as the rest of Europe and have tightened our border controls and beefed up our security and intelligence capabilities.... even though the Liberal minded regard this an "affront to their civil liberties" !

I think this will see a rise in UKIP's popularity again as well as many turning to BNP/EDL type political parties as they sense the likes of Corbyn and Labour will not even be dismayed by this outrage and blame ourselves, whilst Cameron speaks rhetoric about reprisals but not have the balls to actually do anything.

I think Islam is like a wasp infestation - we are currently dealing with the problem by killing a few stray wasps with a rolled up newspaper. However we need to bring in the experts to destroy the nest!

Or.... we can do nothing and slowly allow our population to be engulfed by Muslims and surrender to Sharia Law.

It's our choice.

Edited by Hoof Hearted (14 Nov 2015 10.37am)


You're right, it is our choice.

It's always been our choice. Are we to continue not to learn from the mistakes of the past? Are we to continue to fester ignorance about a religion, a people, a race, which covers close to two billion people, castigating a belief which 20% of the world adheres to, purely because of what we see a select few of them doing?

What's worrying about your post isn't the explicit racism, the absolutely astonishing ignorance, the genocidal undertones, or the fascistic references. It's the fact that so many on here seem to think it's a well thought out post.

Let's begin by saying something that should be fairly obvious. A religion, like any belief, is not inherently evil, but can be adapted and interpreted in an infinite number of ways to suit the agenda of whatever group sees fit. Islam is a religion that has existed for nearly 2 millenia, spawning some of the greatest civilisations the world has ever known, providing us with incredible philosophy, literature, mathematics, language and technological advancements. Even today, Islam is the ideology which drives some of the greatest humanitarian and charitable efforts in the world, not to mention being the religion of choice for hundreds of millions of peaceful, tolerant and kind people.

Does the Koran order people to kill infidels? Perhaps, if you want to read it that way. But Mohammed also tells his followers that murdering one fellow man is like murdering the whole of mankind put together. Likewise, while the Bible does say 'thou shalt not kill', in Exodus we also find this gem: 'Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.' As with the Koran, the bible has been and is still used to justify some of the most unspeakably awful atrocities in human history. Does this mean that Christianity is inherently evil? No, and likewise for Islam.

Secondly, you raise the point of backward Islamic societies, yet again your complete ignorance on the matter knows no bounds. Female genital mutilation is not a specifically Islamic issue: Ethiopia and Nigeria rank as two of the highest offenders in this case, both of which are predominantly Christian countries. As for women, there are more women in parliament in Iran than in Britain, while homosexuality has been legal in Muslim Turkey for a longer time than almost any country in Europe (185. You seem to ignore these aspects of Islam, why is that Hoof? Did it not fit in with your 'Islam is a bees nest' agenda? Were you completely blind to the benevolent side of the major religion in the world?

But yes, I'm sure I can tell what the answer is. I'm just some liberal PC lefty, afraid of 'telling it like it is', I'm blind to what IS are doing and it's people like me who make the situation worse. But hold on, if our policy is, once again, to bomb the region back in to the stone ages, why do we think this will be any more successful than the previous times we've tried it? We've had the gulf war, where future Taliban leaders were trained by US forces. We've had the Iraq war, where 500 000 civilians died and we failed miserably. We've tried bombing Libya, but have inadvertently funded and armed the very organisation behind yesterday's attacks. And yet, out of the rubble and poverty we have created, an even more alienated, even more disillusioned and radical group emerge, and we think the same tactics will work? It's laughable if it wasn't so tragic. Those on the left, and those with anything like a knowledge of the region, have been crying out for infrastructural development, educational support, and advanced diplomacy for decades, yet it looks like once again our pleas will be ignored. Likewise, while we condemn IS in the most comprehensive terms, we turn away the very refugees fleeing them with a wave of the hand.

But I'll end this post with one final remark. The rules on this forum state that any racist ethnically objectionable material will be punished. It is my belief that racism, and indeed all forms of prejudice, stem from ignorance, and what I hope I have proved is that from the almost exclusive ignorance of Hoof's post, conclusions have been reached which at best are ethnically objectionable (Not just a few religious zealots or fundamentalists but with Islam itself... the whole ideology!) and at worst advocating genocide (we need to bring in the experts to destroy the nest!). I'd like to see the mods adhere to the rules of their own forum and warn Hoof that such views aren't welcome on here, yet particularly considering one mod has actively supported his beliefs, I'd be surprised if any of them had the guts to do so.


Islam is not a race. Muslims are not a race. Hoof refers to both of these in his post. Arabs are a race, but these are not mentioned.

There is no racist content in Hoof's post; your reply is based entirely on your own misunderstanding of the word.

Far from dobbing him in to the mods, I believe in fact you owe him an apology.


Calling for all muslims to be interned is a bit dodgy.


Agreed. Technically still not racist though.

Discriminating against someone on the basis of their religion is a criminal offence in this country.

Let's not pretend that some posters on here do not make racist remarks either.

I remember a post where it was said that a professional football association that could represent black players should be called SPADE. One comment of many. I challenged it directly at the time but had no reply. Only friends stuck up for the person, saying they don't think he meant it. Why pretend?

The irony for me in this debate, is that the very freedoms we enjoy, free speech, the freedom to live as we please without interference within the law, justice, fairness for all. These are the freedoms that are under attack.

You don't fight prejudice, injustice and oppression, with prejudice, injustice and oppression.

It doesn't make sense to me to sacrifice our freedom as a consequence of extremism, in order to defeat those who want to end our right to freedom. Allowing others to track my every move, have copies of my DNA, to want to know who I talk to and check whether I go to the shops, the pub, the church, the mosque, I have no interest in living under that.

I don't need to seek the approval of those that I do not approve. That for me that is freedom and what was once called freedom is now being called "privacy", like it's somehow less than it was.

And to those who say, then more will die as a result of our freedom, well what are we living for. Life without freedom is slavery and those who would chose to live without freedom do so out of fear. Fear of "others", fear of government, fear of their own sometimes.

What do we fight for, the same as those that mean us harm? I think not, I think we are and should be different from them. It's been said in other posts before and for me, it rings true.

There is a threat, a serious threat but there is always a threat. Some challenges are greater than others but things like calling for internment or other forms of discrimination are a step backwards. We are not North Korea or Egypt or Russia, Turkey or even the United States.

And before anyone starts to talk about left/liberal views, I am actually quite conservative. My thing is I would never vote for anyone that I did not believe in, my vote is far too important for that. Whether that be Cameron, Brown, Blair, Major. If I had my way I would abolish party politics and have a much more democratic system. There is too much left, right and not enough common.

I have no problem in fighting wars, if we must, that too is a freedom, the freedom to protect ourselves.

I'm sure we have family members that remember or have been involved in war. The amount of times I have heard old veterans say, I fought in the war so you could live free. Members of my family paid the price for that. I for one am not going to let them down by not enjoying what they fought for.

 

"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

Stan Laurel
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JL85 Flag London,SE9 14 Nov 15 7.12pm Send a Private Message to JL85 Add JL85 as a friend

Quote Mr Palaceman at 14 Nov 2015 7.00pm

Quote palace_in_frogland at 14 Nov 2015 3.19pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Nov 2015 3.15pm

Quote palace_in_frogland at 14 Nov 2015 3.09pm

Quote serial thriller at 14 Nov 2015 2.30pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 14 Nov 2015 10.35am

RIVERS OF BLOOD.......... Enoch Powell..... April 1968.

He was laughed at, shouted down even... and here we are nearly 50 years later talking about the very things he predicted happening in Paris.

Jimenez was correct at the beginning of this thread... we are at war........ with Islam Kermit.

Not just a few religious zealots or fundamentalists but with Islam itself... the whole ideology!

Islam calls itself the religion of peace, but the holy Koran directs it's followers to kill all infidels (unbelievers)... but we hear so often that most followers don't take this as a literal instruction. Why have it in there then? How many other religions have such a clear message in it's scriptures to direct people to kill? The Holy Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill"... I'm not clued up on all religions though, but I doubt any others encourage bloodshed?

Why do we tolerate the way Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens, forcing them to dress in Burkhas. denying them education and just being servants to the males? Female Genital Mutilation FFS!

Why are they living here in a culture that is alien to their preachings... no alcohol, gay and lesbians, non halal meat eaters?

These people that carried out tonight's atrocities were highly trained and part of a network that has been helped by the Paris/French Muslim community. They could not have carried out this level of terrorism without the so called moderates being aware of what was going down. Of course now we will hear from the Muslim Council of Great Britain (and/or their French counterparts)decrying the act and how it offends Muslims and their faith.

We are at war and we need to adopt the same mindset of Churchill during WWII and start interning again those Muslims preaching hate rather than releasing them because Liberal namby pambys think it's a crime to do so. We also need to sort out ISIS (or whatever they call themselves) killing and destroying people and historical religious property in Syria and everywhere else they operate around the globe. Shut down their websites glorifying their deeds and attempts to radicalise and recruit young minds.

Do we want blood on our streets?

Luckily we were not as stupid as the rest of Europe and have tightened our border controls and beefed up our security and intelligence capabilities.... even though the Liberal minded regard this an "affront to their civil liberties" !

I think this will see a rise in UKIP's popularity again as well as many turning to BNP/EDL type political parties as they sense the likes of Corbyn and Labour will not even be dismayed by this outrage and blame ourselves, whilst Cameron speaks rhetoric about reprisals but not have the balls to actually do anything.

I think Islam is like a wasp infestation - we are currently dealing with the problem by killing a few stray wasps with a rolled up newspaper. However we need to bring in the experts to destroy the nest!

Or.... we can do nothing and slowly allow our population to be engulfed by Muslims and surrender to Sharia Law.

It's our choice.

Edited by Hoof Hearted (14 Nov 2015 10.37am)


You're right, it is our choice.

It's always been our choice. Are we to continue not to learn from the mistakes of the past? Are we to continue to fester ignorance about a religion, a people, a race, which covers close to two billion people, castigating a belief which 20% of the world adheres to, purely because of what we see a select few of them doing?

What's worrying about your post isn't the explicit racism, the absolutely astonishing ignorance, the genocidal undertones, or the fascistic references. It's the fact that so many on here seem to think it's a well thought out post.

Let's begin by saying something that should be fairly obvious. A religion, like any belief, is not inherently evil, but can be adapted and interpreted in an infinite number of ways to suit the agenda of whatever group sees fit. Islam is a religion that has existed for nearly 2 millenia, spawning some of the greatest civilisations the world has ever known, providing us with incredible philosophy, literature, mathematics, language and technological advancements. Even today, Islam is the ideology which drives some of the greatest humanitarian and charitable efforts in the world, not to mention being the religion of choice for hundreds of millions of peaceful, tolerant and kind people.

Does the Koran order people to kill infidels? Perhaps, if you want to read it that way. But Mohammed also tells his followers that murdering one fellow man is like murdering the whole of mankind put together. Likewise, while the Bible does say 'thou shalt not kill', in Exodus we also find this gem: 'Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.' As with the Koran, the bible has been and is still used to justify some of the most unspeakably awful atrocities in human history. Does this mean that Christianity is inherently evil? No, and likewise for Islam.

Secondly, you raise the point of backward Islamic societies, yet again your complete ignorance on the matter knows no bounds. Female genital mutilation is not a specifically Islamic issue: Ethiopia and Nigeria rank as two of the highest offenders in this case, both of which are predominantly Christian countries. As for women, there are more women in parliament in Iran than in Britain, while homosexuality has been legal in Muslim Turkey for a longer time than almost any country in Europe (185. You seem to ignore these aspects of Islam, why is that Hoof? Did it not fit in with your 'Islam is a bees nest' agenda? Were you completely blind to the benevolent side of the major religion in the world?

But yes, I'm sure I can tell what the answer is. I'm just some liberal PC lefty, afraid of 'telling it like it is', I'm blind to what IS are doing and it's people like me who make the situation worse. But hold on, if our policy is, once again, to bomb the region back in to the stone ages, why do we think this will be any more successful than the previous times we've tried it? We've had the gulf war, where future Taliban leaders were trained by US forces. We've had the Iraq war, where 500 000 civilians died and we failed miserably. We've tried bombing Libya, but have inadvertently funded and armed the very organisation behind yesterday's attacks. And yet, out of the rubble and poverty we have created, an even more alienated, even more disillusioned and radical group emerge, and we think the same tactics will work? It's laughable if it wasn't so tragic. Those on the left, and those with anything like a knowledge of the region, have been crying out for infrastructural development, educational support, and advanced diplomacy for decades, yet it looks like once again our pleas will be ignored. Likewise, while we condemn IS in the most comprehensive terms, we turn away the very refugees fleeing them with a wave of the hand.

But I'll end this post with one final remark. The rules on this forum state that any racist ethnically objectionable material will be punished. It is my belief that racism, and indeed all forms of prejudice, stem from ignorance, and what I hope I have proved is that from the almost exclusive ignorance of Hoof's post, conclusions have been reached which at best are ethnically objectionable (Not just a few religious zealots or fundamentalists but with Islam itself... the whole ideology!) and at worst advocating genocide (we need to bring in the experts to destroy the nest!). I'd like to see the mods adhere to the rules of their own forum and warn Hoof that such views aren't welcome on here, yet particularly considering one mod has actively supported his beliefs, I'd be surprised if any of them had the guts to do so.


Islam is not a race. Muslims are not a race. Hoof refers to both of these in his post. Arabs are a race, but these are not mentioned.

There is no racist content in Hoof's post; your reply is based entirely on your own misunderstanding of the word.

Far from dobbing him in to the mods, I believe in fact you owe him an apology.


Calling for all muslims to be interned is a bit dodgy.


Agreed. Technically still not racist though.

Discriminating against someone on the basis of their religion is a criminal offence in this country.

Let's not pretend that some posters on here do not make racist remarks either.

I remember a post where it was said that a professional football association that could represent black players should be called SPADE. One comment of many. I challenged it directly at the time but had no reply. Only friends stuck up for the person, saying they don't think he meant it. Why pretend?

The irony for me in this debate, is that the very freedoms we enjoy, free speech, the freedom to live as we please without interference within the law, justice, fairness for all. These are the freedoms that are under attack.

You don't fight prejudice, injustice and oppression, with prejudice, injustice and oppression.

It doesn't make sense to me to sacrifice our freedom as a consequence of extremism, in order to defeat those who want to end our right to freedom. Allowing others to track my every move, have copies of my DNA, to want to know who I talk to and check whether I go to the shops, the pub, the church, the mosque, I have no interest in living under that.

I don't need to seek the approval of those that I do not approve. That for me that is freedom and what was once called freedom is now being called "privacy", like it's somehow less than it was.

And to those who say, then more will die as a result of our freedom, well what are we living for. Life without freedom is slavery and those who would chose to live without freedom do so out of fear. Fear of "others", fear of government, fear of their own sometimes.

What do we fight for, the same as those that mean us harm? I think not, I think we are and should be different from them. It's been said in other posts before and for me, it rings true.

There is a threat, a serious threat but there is always a threat. Some challenges are greater than others but things like calling for internment or other forms of discrimination are a step backwards. We are not North Korea or Egypt or Russia, Turkey or even the United States.

And before anyone starts to talk about left/liberal views, I am actually quite conservative. My thing is I would never vote for anyone that I did not believe in, my vote is far too important for that. Whether that be Cameron, Brown, Blair, Major. If I had my way I would abolish party politics and have a much more democratic system. There is too much left, right and not enough common.

I have no problem in fighting wars, if we must, that too is a freedom, the freedom to protect ourselves.

I'm sure we have family members that remember or have been involved in war. The amount of times I have heard old veterans say, I fought in the war so you could live free. Members of my family paid the price for that. I for one am not going to let them down by not enjoying what they fought for.

[/quote

Excellent post.


 
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lancseagle Flag burnley 14 Nov 15 7.16pm Send a Private Message to lancseagle Add lancseagle as a friend

Quote JL85 at 14 Nov 2015 5.46pm

Quote lancseagle at 14 Nov 2015 5.24pm

I'd never heard of ISIS pre saddam, gaddafi never been a truer saying of the better the devil you know.


You'd heard of Bin Laden and Al-Qeada, though, i take it?

Same mob, different flag.

Yes of course I mentioned the 2 others as it was more in line with the subject it's all kind of connected I guess to a degree some more than others. It's a very devicise topic the foreign policy I just think there was less trouble before less of a threat if that's the right word to use.

 
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lancseagle Flag burnley 14 Nov 15 7.18pm Send a Private Message to lancseagle Add lancseagle as a friend

Quote JL85 at 14 Nov 2015 5.46pm

Quote lancseagle at 14 Nov 2015 5.24pm

I'd never heard of ISIS pre saddam, gaddafi never been a truer saying of the better the devil you know.


You'd heard of Bin Laden and Al-Qeada, though, i take it?

Same mob, different flag.

Yes of course I mentioned the 2 others as it was more in line with the subject it's all kind of connected I guess to a degree some more than others. It's a very devisive topic the foreign policy I just think there was less trouble before less of a threat if that's the right word to use.

 
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