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Labour Leadership - Bald men fighting over a comb?
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 Johnny Eagles  berlin 27 Jul 15 3.05pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 2.08pm
Thoght Corbyn came across well on the Marr show yesterday.
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nickgusset  Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 15 3.23pm |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 27 Jul 2015 3.05pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 2.08pm
Thoght Corbyn came across well on the Marr show yesterday.
I thought he eloquently brushed aside Marrs obvious attempts to rile him. Parties like the SNP, Greens and Labour have all seen a huge surge in memership. The fact is, there has been an anti austerity movement building for years. That's why the SNP won in Scotland. The problem is if Corbyn does get the leadership (on the back of one member one vote which was brought in by Blairites to stop the unions having a say - yet now they are saying this voting system is wrong!) the right-wing dominated media will crucify him. Just like they do to anyone who challenges the wealth and privilege of the elite, of which the newspaper's owners are part. Yes, the public may support his policies but the media will soon bring the sheep to heel. He'll be labelled loony, communist, dangerous. There'll be talk of him ruining the economy and taxing middle England to oblivion. It'll all be rubbish of course, but in politics the truth doesn't matter. Ad hominem attacks and lies are usually the sign of a weak counter argument. Has anyone seen any economic counter arguments to what Corbyn proposes other than the mention of 3 day weeks, hard left, Stalin etc etc. I can't say I have.
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| Stuk Top half 27 Jul 15 3.38pm |
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The SNP won in Scotland because they're not the Conservatives/Labour/Lib dems etc, not because they're anti-austerity. Please stop trotting out that s***. Please equally stop attributing every new member to the Greens, SNP and Labour as being 100% down to anti-austerity. It's because they're anti-tory or this surge would've happened when austerity was implemented during the coalition government. Corbyn is a gift and a half to the Conservative party, no matter how (divided) Labour try to dress it up.
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| OknotOK Cockfosters, London 27 Jul 15 3.44pm |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 27 Jul 2015 3.05pm
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 2.08pm
Thoght Corbyn came across well on the Marr show yesterday.
I haven't seen the show so can't comment on how he performed. But there is a strong argument to be made that he is exactly the solution to the desertions. Labour party membership is growing at the moment. And the biggest growth is among apparent Corbyn supporters. And the growth of party membership for the Greens (although now in decline) and the SNP was almost certainly driven (at least partially) by their anti-austerity stance.
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| Johnny Eagles berlin 27 Jul 15 3.46pm |
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Sorry to do the multiple quote things, but it's quicker. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
I thought he eloquently brushed aside Marrs obvious attempts to rile him. Haven't seen it, but I can imagine you're right on this. Humphreys' ad hominem stuff on Tim Farron last week was beyond pathetic. I can imagine Marr on Corbyn was not much better. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
As for deserting Labour? I'd say more like deserting their policies. The difference being? Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Parties like the SNP, Greens and Labour have all seen a huge surge in memership. The SNP - yes. The reason for that was the referendum. The Greens - a decent rise from a low base. I'll give you that one. Labour - have not had a surge in membership. They've got about 190,000 members. It has been roughly stable since 2010. Historically they're way down (350,000 in the 1980s; 700,000 in the early 70s; over a million in the 1950s.) Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
The fact is, there has been an anti austerity movement building for years. That's why the SNP won in Scotland. Evidence? The SNP is all things to all people in Scotland. The reasons it won are complex. The main reason was again the referendum. Anti-austerity is not a big vote-winner. The Tory majority is the best evidence I can think of for this. I'm intrigued what evidence you think supports the opposite view. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
The problem is if Corbyn does get the leadership (on the back of one member one vote which was brought in by Blairites to stop the unions having a say - yet now they are saying this voting system is wrong!) the right-wing dominated media will crucify him. Just like they do to anyone who challenges the wealth and privilege of the elite, of which the newspaper's owners are part. Agree with all of this. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Yes, the public may support his policies but the media will soon bring the sheep to heel. He'll be labelled loony, communist, dangerous. There'll be talk of him ruining the economy and taxing middle England to oblivion. It'll all be rubbish of course, but in politics the truth doesn't matter. I don't think the public - beyond a relatively small left-leaning fringe of, say, 10% at the absolute most - support his policies. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Ad hominem attacks and lies are usually the sign of a weak counter argument. Has anyone seen any economic counter arguments to what Corbyn proposes other than the mention of 3 day weeks, hard left, Stalin etc etc. I can't say I have. Agree with this. Cameron met Gerry Adams at Downing Street last week. How come that didn't get all the "canoodling with terrorists" coverage that Corbyn's been getting?
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Mr Fenandes  27 Jul 15 3.47pm |
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What's boring is the failure of 95% of people to actually focus on what's being said in context, instead of paraphrasing a scaremongering media. Milliband almost deserved it because he had nothing to say; Corbyn does, and he's laying those policies on the line for scrutiny. Why can't people focus on that instead of hyperbole, defending their stance before actually listening to what is being said. I honestly don't see why there's such apathy to corporation tax evasion. If these companies don't wanna pay, f*ck off else well and let another company take your place. Would we really miss companies like Topshop/Starbucks anyway? The Labour party are sh*tting themselves because there may actually be a leader who won't be corrupted by corporations (see how much Tony Blair has earned since he's left govt and the companies he's working for; miraculous sums for doing very little). Time for a change, time to put inequality to task, and time for the people to be put first for once.
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| Mr Fenandes 27 Jul 15 3.49pm |
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Quote leggedstruggle at 27 Jul 2015 9.48am
Quote legaleagle at 27 Jul 2015 9.39am
To say Corbyn is a believer in the same things as say Stalin is similar to saying Derb, sorry legged struggle, has views akin to Mussolini or Hitler... Trite tripe. Stalin believed in the nationalisation of all major industries - so does Corbyn. Hitler was an Aston Villa fan. So is Cameron. Thought I'd also throw out a totally irrelevant point out of context for the sake of impact.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 15 4.01pm |
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I'll do the same. Quote Johnny Eagles at 27 Jul 2015 3.46pm
Sorry to do the multiple quote things, but it's quicker. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 27 Jul 2015 3.46pm
The difference being? I'd say that Corbyn's place in the leadership election shows that many are returning. Quote
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Parties like the SNP, Greens and Labour have all seen a huge surge in memership. The SNP - yes. The reason for that was the referendum. The Greens - a decent rise from a low base. I'll give you that one. Labour - have not had a surge in membership. They've got about 190,000 members. It has been roughly stable since 2010. Historically they're way down (350,000 in the 1980s; 700,000 in the early 70s; over a million in the 1950s.) So who are all these people joining in order to vote for Corbyn? Quote
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
The fact is, there has been an anti austerity movement building for years. That's why the SNP won in Scotland. Evidence? The SNP is all things to all people in Scotland. The reasons it won are complex. The main reason was again the referendum. Anti-austerity is not a big vote-winner. The Tory majority is the best evidence I can think of for this. I'm intrigued what evidence you think supports the opposite view. I spoke to SNP mep Humza Yousaf when I met him before the election. I asked him what snp policy most resonated with scottish voters. His response was unequivocal - The move away from austerity. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
The problem is if Corbyn does get the leadership (on the back of one member one vote which was brought in by Blairites to stop the unions having a say - yet now they are saying this voting system is wrong!) the right-wing dominated media will crucify him. Just like they do to anyone who challenges the wealth and privilege of the elite, of which the newspaper's owners are part. Agree with all of this. Quote
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Yes, the public may support his policies but the media will soon bring the sheep to heel. He'll be labelled loony, communist, dangerous. There'll be talk of him ruining the economy and taxing middle England to oblivion. It'll all be rubbish of course, but in politics the truth doesn't matter. I don't think the public - beyond a relatively small left-leaning fringe of, say, 10% at the absolute most - support his policies. Although some of the data is old, this says otherwise. Quote
Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Ad hominem attacks and lies are usually the sign of a weak counter argument. Has anyone seen any economic counter arguments to what Corbyn proposes other than the mention of 3 day weeks, hard left, Stalin etc etc. I can't say I have. Agree with this. Cameron met Gerry Adams at Downing Street last week. How come that didn't get all the "canoodling with terrorists" coverage that Corbyn's been getting?
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| Johnny Eagles berlin 28 Jul 15 9.18am |
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Re: the 'surge' in Labour membership From what I've heard, the 'surge' in Labour membership has a lot to do with the new pay-three-quid-and-you-can-vote rule. The system is being gamed by Unite and, according to some rumours, the Tory party. I'll concede there does appear to be some movement from younger, idealistic, leftist people joining to vote for Corbyn. However, I'd contend that the noise they make (ie, lots, especially on social media) does not correlate with the electoral impact they will have (ie, little - where were the legions of RustyRocketeers in May when it came to thwarting the Tory majority?) Incidentally, I wonder if there's more than a bit of media hype around the 'surge'. The pundits bang on about people flocking to join without mentioning any actual numbers. How many have joined? I suspect the 'surge' has more basis in the media narrative than in empirical fact.
Its supposed anti-austerity stance (its record in Holyrood has been a lot less anti-austerity than it would have you believe) is only a minor reason for its success in May. Much more important was the defeat in the referendum (the Quebec nationalists surged after they lost their referendum). The complacency and disorganisation of the Scottish Labour party was also a factor. Also, I believe the SNP has done its fair share of sucking up to big business and, had it won independence, was pretty keen on slashing corporation tax. Ergo, the SNP is not an anti-austerity party; it is a populist party which will say whatever it thinks will win it votes. The Syriza comparison is a bit stretched, if I may say so. Suffice to say, there are certain economic factors in Greece which are skewing public opinion somewhat. As for your link, I can only respond by saying that surveys are a device for influencing popular opinion, not measuring it. p.s. Corbyn is not the favourite to win. Burnham is still the favourite. Edited by Johnny Eagles (28 Jul 2015 9.30am)
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| leggedstruggle Croydon 28 Jul 15 9.42am |
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Agree with this. Cameron met Gerry Adams at Downing Street last week. How come that didn't get all the "canoodling with terrorists" coverage that Corbyn's been getting?
Maybe it is because unlike Corbyn, Cameron did not invite Adams and other IRA leaders to the House of Commons three weeks after the Brighton bombing. Cameron, unlike Corbyn, did not hold a minutes silence for eight IRA terrorists shot by the SA in Gibraltar. Cameron, unlike Corbyn, did not hire Ronan Bennett, an IRA terrorist, as a researcher. Edited by leggedstruggle (28 Jul 2015 9.42am)
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| Johnny Eagles berlin 28 Jul 15 10.49am |
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Cameron: "We are determined to defeat extremism in all its forms." Apart from murderous terrorists who killed a member of the royal family and tried to assassiate a British prime minister. We invite them round to tea.
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| Sedlescombe Sedlescombe 28 Jul 15 10.52am |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 27 Jul 2015 3.46pm
Sorry to do the multiple quote things, but it's quicker. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
I thought he eloquently brushed aside Marrs obvious attempts to rile him. Haven't seen it, but I can imagine you're right on this. Humphreys' ad hominem stuff on Tim Farron last week was beyond pathetic. I can imagine Marr on Corbyn was not much better. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
As for deserting Labour? I'd say more like deserting their policies. The difference being? Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Parties like the SNP, Greens and Labour have all seen a huge surge in memership. The SNP - yes. The reason for that was the referendum. The Greens - a decent rise from a low base. I'll give you that one. Labour - have not had a surge in membership. They've got about 190,000 members. It has been roughly stable since 2010. Historically they're way down (350,000 in the 1980s; 700,000 in the early 70s; over a million in the 1950s.) Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
The fact is, there has been an anti austerity movement building for years. That's why the SNP won in Scotland. Evidence? The SNP is all things to all people in Scotland. The reasons it won are complex. The main reason was again the referendum. Anti-austerity is not a big vote-winner. The Tory majority is the best evidence I can think of for this. I'm intrigued what evidence you think supports the opposite view. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
The problem is if Corbyn does get the leadership (on the back of one member one vote which was brought in by Blairites to stop the unions having a say - yet now they are saying this voting system is wrong!) the right-wing dominated media will crucify him. Just like they do to anyone who challenges the wealth and privilege of the elite, of which the newspaper's owners are part. Agree with all of this. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Yes, the public may support his policies but the media will soon bring the sheep to heel. He'll be labelled loony, communist, dangerous. There'll be talk of him ruining the economy and taxing middle England to oblivion. It'll all be rubbish of course, but in politics the truth doesn't matter. I don't think the public - beyond a relatively small left-leaning fringe of, say, 10% at the absolute most - support his policies. Quote nickgusset at 27 Jul 2015 3.23pm
Ad hominem attacks and lies are usually the sign of a weak counter argument. Has anyone seen any economic counter arguments to what Corbyn proposes other than the mention of 3 day weeks, hard left, Stalin etc etc. I can't say I have. Agree with this. Cameron met Gerry Adams at Downing Street last week. How come that didn't get all the "canoodling with terrorists" coverage that Corbyn's been getting? I imagine he Queen has had more dinners with ex terrorists than anyone on the planet
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