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9 dead in USA Church Shooting.
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 black eagle.  south croydon. 22 Jun 15 2.03pm |
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Quote sydtheeagle at 22 Jun 2015 1.50pm
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm
As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again. if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again. Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions? Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame. Does he have sympathy for his victims? Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest. only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done.
Whether Roof has sympathy for his victims is neither here nor there. The bigger point is that the families of his victims have sympathy for him. The irony that compassion can be found in those most hurt by the tragedy while the death penalty posturing is left to those like you thousands of miles away from Charleston says it all about whose values are right and whose are wrong. Edited by sydtheeagle (22 Jun 2015 1.50pm)
Your right the families have found it in their hearts to forgive Roof but at the end of the day in regards to threads like this it is all about opinions. My brother and sister are against the death penalty but i am for it in cases like this. i make no apology saying Roof should be put to sleep because that's what he deserves in my opinion.
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derben  22 Jun 15 2.06pm |
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Quote sydtheeagle at 22 Jun 2015 1.44pm
Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.18pm
The victims of the murderers are certainly not the people they were a decade ago. Scrap all the endless appeals, allow them one and if that fails, go ahead. Society is protected by removing a killer from its midst and saving money avoiding long prison sentences. Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm) But society ISN'T protected by the presence of the death sentence. That's exactly the point. If society gained any benefit then violent crime would be lower in countries with the death penalty than those without it. And so far as I know, it isn't. You can argue that it makes everyone feel better to remove killers, but you can't claim it affords any protection to society at large by doing so. As for saving money, there are some costs that simply have to be borne by civilised societies. A functional penal system is one of them. Besides, executing people isn't much cheaper than imprisoning them for life, so far as I am aware. Yes, limiting their right to appeal would reduce that cost but I don't think -- when you're taking away a person's life -- short cuts are something you want to look for. Society is protected in that the murderer is not around to do it again if released - many murderers are released and a significant number kill again. Deterrence is difficult to measure. Perhaps there would be even more murders in the US if some if all States abolished the death penalty.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 15 2.08pm |
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Quote Stuk at 22 Jun 2015 1.57pm
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 1.41pm
Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation. Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way.
He's going to be in jail forever but you can't kill them by any method other than those allowed by law, and you can't bump him up the queue because his crime seems more evil than that of another, already sentenced to death before him. And you'd be wrong. 95% of paroled lifers never commit a serious criminal offence in their lifetime (though I suspect that more due to the time involved than prison service). It does seem weird how difficult it actually proves to legally kill someone in the US. The grounds for appealing a death sentence are massive in law (well they're the same as for any sentence more or less, but with other sentences you've got the prospect of parole, time served and deals to consider and the state has the prospect of 'making it right' after the fact). So it proves a very expensive and consuming process, because essentially you've got appeals on the basis of fairness, predical sentencing, fair trial, proper representation, constitutional law, due process etc stuff that you'd never bother with, where you were tried, poltiical bais etc... Which you'd never really bother with if you weren't facing death.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Kermit8  Hevon 22 Jun 15 2.11pm |
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That Jane Thingy - Fergie's bunny boiler friend and employee - is due to be released any day now. Seems rather soon. Raw memories for her dead ex's family still, I'd imagine.
Big chest and massive boobs |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 15 2.12pm |
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Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 2.06pm
Quote sydtheeagle at 22 Jun 2015 1.44pm
Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.18pm
The victims of the murderers are certainly not the people they were a decade ago. Scrap all the endless appeals, allow them one and if that fails, go ahead. Society is protected by removing a killer from its midst and saving money avoiding long prison sentences. Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm) But society ISN'T protected by the presence of the death sentence. That's exactly the point. If society gained any benefit then violent crime would be lower in countries with the death penalty than those without it. And so far as I know, it isn't. You can argue that it makes everyone feel better to remove killers, but you can't claim it affords any protection to society at large by doing so. As for saving money, there are some costs that simply have to be borne by civilised societies. A functional penal system is one of them. Besides, executing people isn't much cheaper than imprisoning them for life, so far as I am aware. Yes, limiting their right to appeal would reduce that cost but I don't think -- when you're taking away a person's life -- short cuts are something you want to look for. Society is protected in that the murderer is not around to do it again if released - many murderers are released and a significant number kill again. Deterrence is difficult to measure. Perhaps there would be even more murders in the US if some if all States abolished the death penalty. Given that around 95% of UK Murderers never violate their life parole, I suspect those numbers to be actually be insignificant. Certain types of people and offender should NEVER be released. Also, that may even prove more successful in protecting society, as it allows redress from wrongful conviction. The US might be somewhat different, having different degrees of murder, but the number of people committing a first degree murder after being imprisoned, is going to be individual cases out of hundreds of thousands.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 15 2.13pm |
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Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 2.06pm
Quote sydtheeagle at 22 Jun 2015 1.44pm
Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.18pm
The victims of the murderers are certainly not the people they were a decade ago. Scrap all the endless appeals, allow them one and if that fails, go ahead. Society is protected by removing a killer from its midst and saving money avoiding long prison sentences. Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm) But society ISN'T protected by the presence of the death sentence. That's exactly the point. If society gained any benefit then violent crime would be lower in countries with the death penalty than those without it. And so far as I know, it isn't. You can argue that it makes everyone feel better to remove killers, but you can't claim it affords any protection to society at large by doing so. As for saving money, there are some costs that simply have to be borne by civilised societies. A functional penal system is one of them. Besides, executing people isn't much cheaper than imprisoning them for life, so far as I am aware. Yes, limiting their right to appeal would reduce that cost but I don't think -- when you're taking away a person's life -- short cuts are something you want to look for. Society is protected in that the murderer is not around to do it again if released - many murderers are released and a significant number kill again. Deterrence is difficult to measure. Perhaps there would be even more murders in the US if some if all States abolished the death penalty. The same society that is not protected from wrongful conviction and execution by the state?
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 15 2.16pm |
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Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 2.03pm
Quote sydtheeagle at 22 Jun 2015 1.50pm
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm
As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again. if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again. Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions? Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame. Does he have sympathy for his victims? Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest. only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done.
Whether Roof has sympathy for his victims is neither here nor there. The bigger point is that the families of his victims have sympathy for him. The irony that compassion can be found in those most hurt by the tragedy while the death penalty posturing is left to those like you thousands of miles away from Charleston says it all about whose values are right and whose are wrong. Edited by sydtheeagle (22 Jun 2015 1.50pm)
Your right the families have found it in their hearts to forgive Roof but at the end of the day in regards to threads like this it is all about opinions. My brother and sister are against the death penalty but i am for it in cases like this. i make no apology saying Roof should be put to sleep because that's what he deserves in my opinion. Actually, you also said he deserves everything he gets, and should fry. Which is the very antithesis of being put to sleep (a statement that equates relatively humane end, largely administered as a kindess to avoid greater suffering, ie an act of compassion and mercy, in which the person making the decision suffers greatly to ease the suffering of another, most typically an animal, but increasingly a person).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| black eagle. south croydon. 22 Jun 15 2.20pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 1.59pm
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 1.41pm
Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation. Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way. So its alright to inflict evil on evil people, if you think they can't change? That seems neither rational or just.
as a consequence for what his done he deserves to put on death row. we all have families how would we feel if members of families were gunned down in cold blood? i tell you now i would want revenge.
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| Stuk Top half 22 Jun 15 2.21pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 2.08pm
Quote Stuk at 22 Jun 2015 1.57pm
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 1.41pm
Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation. Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way.
He's going to be in jail forever but you can't kill them by any method other than those allowed by law, and you can't bump him up the queue because his crime seems more evil than that of another, already sentenced to death before him. And you'd be wrong. 95% of paroled lifers never commit a serious criminal offence in their lifetime (though I suspect that more due to the time involved than prison service). It does seem weird how difficult it actually proves to legally kill someone in the US. The grounds for appealing a death sentence are massive in law (well they're the same as for any sentence more or less, but with other sentences you've got the prospect of parole, time served and deals to consider and the state has the prospect of 'making it right' after the fact). So it proves a very expensive and consuming process, because essentially you've got appeals on the basis of fairness, predical sentencing, fair trial, proper representation, constitutional law, due process etc stuff that you'd never bother with, where you were tried, poltiical bais etc... Which you'd never really bother with if you weren't facing death.
Optimistic as ever |
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| sydtheeagle England 22 Jun 15 2.35pm |
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Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 2.03pm
Your entittled to your opinion Syd and i welcome it. Your right the families have found it in their hearts to forgive Roof but at the end of the day in regards to threads like this it is all about opinions. My brother and sister are against the death penalty but i am for it in cases like this. i make no apology saying Roof should be put to sleep because that's what he deserves in my opinion. Re: point 1, ditto. Your view pains me but it's your right to hold it and yes, it is about opinions. Even if you are pro the death penalty, and I concede that everyone has the right to form their own opinion on that question, I would still prefer you not to use language that equates the value of a human life with that of an animal. You may think this is splitting hairs but I think the distinction is important. We (people) are sentient in a way that animals are not. We are capable of thinking and changing ourself and self-analysis and introspection to degrees that appear not to be available to beasts. Cogito, ergo sum was not penned by or for a cow -- Cartesian dualism is not the backstop of the animal world. In other words, there isn't moral equivalence between humans and animals and the way you state your views should -- I think -- be chosen more carefully than appears to be the case. That Dylan Roof is scum is true beyond any shadow of doubt. But he's human scum and that's how he should be treated. If you want to equate him with an animal (which would mean his possessing significantly less intelligence and critical faculties than the average human being) then almost by definition you would find it inappropriate to execute him since he would be too mentally limited to know any better with regard to his actions. And we don't execute the mentally subnormal (thank goodness.) Only if you conceive of Roof as a thinking, sentient human (not animal) could you possibly conclude that he is responsible for his actions and should, therefore, be put to death with that in mind. So in a way, your language contradicts your conclusion. Why? Because you're writing emotionally rather than thoughtfully, I suspect. The death penalty is a complex and difficult subject, however simple you and others may wish to make it. When it comes to deciding to kill people, even if you think it's right, we should always take more time than less. There is no going back, ever.
Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God. |
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| Stuk Top half 22 Jun 15 2.52pm |
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Although only one victim, who survived, this case in Wales isn't too disimilar.
Optimistic as ever |
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| derben 22 Jun 15 2.55pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 2.13pm
Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 2.06pm
Quote sydtheeagle at 22 Jun 2015 1.44pm
Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.18pm
The victims of the murderers are certainly not the people they were a decade ago. Scrap all the endless appeals, allow them one and if that fails, go ahead. Society is protected by removing a killer from its midst and saving money avoiding long prison sentences. Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm) But society ISN'T protected by the presence of the death sentence. That's exactly the point. If society gained any benefit then violent crime would be lower in countries with the death penalty than those without it. And so far as I know, it isn't. You can argue that it makes everyone feel better to remove killers, but you can't claim it affords any protection to society at large by doing so. As for saving money, there are some costs that simply have to be borne by civilised societies. A functional penal system is one of them. Besides, executing people isn't much cheaper than imprisoning them for life, so far as I am aware. Yes, limiting their right to appeal would reduce that cost but I don't think -- when you're taking away a person's life -- short cuts are something you want to look for. Society is protected in that the murderer is not around to do it again if released - many murderers are released and a significant number kill again. Deterrence is difficult to measure. Perhaps there would be even more murders in the US if some if all States abolished the death penalty. The same society that is not protected from wrongful conviction and execution by the state? At least 35 released murderers killed again after release 2001-2011 according to the BBC: [Link] How many innocent people were executed in the last ten years of the death penalty? If less then 35, then I would say we would be ahead of the game in having a death penalty.
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