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elgrande bedford 05 Jun 15 8.10pm | |
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Quote SwalecliffeEagle at 05 Jun 2015 5.26pm
Nationalism is an interesting concept, and one we tend to think about as having been in existence for much longer than is the case. Yet it has only been in existence since the 1700s, roughly speaking. Before then, the world was structured largely according to kingdoms and realms. Subjects fell under the jurisdiction of a common ruler, but shared few of the unifying cultural markers such as dress and language which nationalism offers society. In that sense, as Benedict Anderson labels it, nationalism is an 'imagined community' borne from the mind and expressed through print-capitalism (institutions). Cultural identities and ties then flow from the creation of a homogeneous community and the institutions which are set up within a particular state. Yet I believe that nationalism, although a human construct, is a natural expression, and in that sense an innate quality. Since the dawn of time, animals have marked out their territory and reacted to those that violate the boundaries laid out. We are not so different, as some would like to think. Animals naturally bond with those of the same species, and as humans we are naturally inclined to identify with those of our own racial heritage. Being a nationalist is not racist or xenophobic, it's just a modern-day expression of an age old instinct. It is not the politics of division, or at least does not have to be in the destructive sense. To evoke Khrushchev, it can and should be more about 'peaceful coexistence'. The other thing I would like to add is that despite the ramblings of certain numpties on the extreme left, people across the world are not all the same. British people, collectively speaking, are different from the French, the French are different to the Americans, and so on and so forth. The irony is that differences between us today are the net result of nationalism. National boundaries mark different styles of institutions, and these institutions in turn mould our character. Humans have the capacity to transcend these differences, but it is neither desirable or easy to do so. That is why such a construct exists in the first place. Thus, the present bourgeois drive to create a European superstate is being pushed through with reckless speed and with no consideration of the practicalities of such a project. It is unnatural, and largely unwanted, because of our collective desire to identify ourselves with the familiar. As for the question 'Is Britain racist?', it barely deserves qualifying with an answer. In any case, unless one were to undertake an in-depth statistical analysis of the levels of racism in each and every country, and then perform a comparative analysis, it is impossible to answer. Edited by SwalecliffeEagle (05 Jun 2015 5.32pm)
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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TheJudge 05 Jun 15 9.36pm | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 05 Jun 2015 4.09pm
Quote serial thriller at 05 Jun 2015 4.04pm
So nationalism is an innate quality?
Whether you are for or against that probably comes down to the family or group culture that you were raised within or accepted. Precisely.
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 05 Jun 15 9.42pm | |
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Is Britain racist? On the whole, Id say no, however incidents like the one on the link show there are still some neanderthals out there.
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TheJudge 05 Jun 15 9.47pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 05 Jun 2015 1.05pm
Quote TheJudge at 05 Jun 2015 12.29pm
You are not talking about numbers. The Romans and Normans influenced the country because the took control of government by force. Because no one actually has any real knowledge of the actual numbers. Certainly the number were presumably sufficient for say William to defeat Harold militarily and put down the Northern Rebellion shortly after. And of course once settled they brought family over and servants, and over time began to marry into the local populations. The roman army of Claudius invasion was four legions, about 20,000 troops and around 20,000 auxilleries. The estimated population of the UK at the time is around 4m. Which is pretty big. Notably when the Doomesday census put the population of England, during the 11th century at between 1.5m and 2m - Estimates of Williams Army are between 8,000 and 12,000 men. Later backed by about 8000 initial settlers given lands and titles by William etc. So not exactly insignificant numbers, with a population even of 2m. Edited by jamiemartin721 (05 Jun 2015 1.10pm)
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TheJudge 05 Jun 15 9.53pm | |
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Quote nickgusset at 05 Jun 2015 9.42pm
Is Britain racist? On the whole, Id say no, however incidents like the one on the link show there are still some neanderthals out there. This is typical of you. Shall we find some "bad Muslim" stories so you can successfully kick off a race argument ? Not today thanks, I'm in a good will to all men mood. (except Blind Eagle on the BBS)
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derben 05 Jun 15 9.55pm | |
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Quote nickgusset at 05 Jun 2015 9.42pm
Is Britain racist? On the whole, Id say no, however incidents like the one on the link show there are still some neanderthals out there. Yes, here is another one.
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derben 05 Jun 15 9.56pm | |
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Quote elgrande at 05 Jun 2015 8.10pm
Quote SwalecliffeEagle at 05 Jun 2015 5.26pm
Nationalism is an interesting concept, and one we tend to think about as having been in existence for much longer than is the case. Yet it has only been in existence since the 1700s, roughly speaking. Before then, the world was structured largely according to kingdoms and realms. Subjects fell under the jurisdiction of a common ruler, but shared few of the unifying cultural markers such as dress and language which nationalism offers society. In that sense, as Benedict Anderson labels it, nationalism is an 'imagined community' borne from the mind and expressed through print-capitalism (institutions). Cultural identities and ties then flow from the creation of a homogeneous community and the institutions which are set up within a particular state. Yet I believe that nationalism, although a human construct, is a natural expression, and in that sense an innate quality. Since the dawn of time, animals have marked out their territory and reacted to those that violate the boundaries laid out. We are not so different, as some would like to think. Animals naturally bond with those of the same species, and as humans we are naturally inclined to identify with those of our own racial heritage. Being a nationalist is not racist or xenophobic, it's just a modern-day expression of an age old instinct. It is not the politics of division, or at least does not have to be in the destructive sense. To evoke Khrushchev, it can and should be more about 'peaceful coexistence'. The other thing I would like to add is that despite the ramblings of certain numpties on the extreme left, people across the world are not all the same. British people, collectively speaking, are different from the French, the French are different to the Americans, and so on and so forth. The irony is that differences between us today are the net result of nationalism. National boundaries mark different styles of institutions, and these institutions in turn mould our character. Humans have the capacity to transcend these differences, but it is neither desirable or easy to do so. That is why such a construct exists in the first place. Thus, the present bourgeois drive to create a European superstate is being pushed through with reckless speed and with no consideration of the practicalities of such a project. It is unnatural, and largely unwanted, because of our collective desire to identify ourselves with the familiar. As for the question 'Is Britain racist?', it barely deserves qualifying with an answer. In any case, unless one were to undertake an in-depth statistical analysis of the levels of racism in each and every country, and then perform a comparative analysis, it is impossible to answer. Edited by SwalecliffeEagle (05 Jun 2015 5.32pm)
hear, hear.
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Catfish Burgess Hill 05 Jun 15 9.56pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 03 Jun 2015 12.56pm
Britain isn't a racist country. There are some people within the UK that are racist, but that's not a country - You'll find small narrow minded hateful people in most countries.
There is prejudice - but I think that in this country it is far more class based than racially based. If you had a black man who spoke with an Eton accent the average Brit would tug their forelock automatically. I have witnessed colleagues look down their nose at highly qualified people of all racial backgrounds in job interviews because they spoke with a South London accent.
Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial |
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SwalecliffeEagle Swalecliffe 05 Jun 15 11.11pm | |
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Quote derben at 05 Jun 2015 9.56pm
Quote elgrande at 05 Jun 2015 8.10pm
Quote SwalecliffeEagle at 05 Jun 2015 5.26pm
Nationalism is an interesting concept, and one we tend to think about as having been in existence for much longer than is the case. Yet it has only been in existence since the 1700s, roughly speaking. Before then, the world was structured largely according to kingdoms and realms. Subjects fell under the jurisdiction of a common ruler, but shared few of the unifying cultural markers such as dress and language which nationalism offers society. In that sense, as Benedict Anderson labels it, nationalism is an 'imagined community' borne from the mind and expressed through print-capitalism (institutions). Cultural identities and ties then flow from the creation of a homogeneous community and the institutions which are set up within a particular state. Yet I believe that nationalism, although a human construct, is a natural expression, and in that sense an innate quality. Since the dawn of time, animals have marked out their territory and reacted to those that violate the boundaries laid out. We are not so different, as some would like to think. Animals naturally bond with those of the same species, and as humans we are naturally inclined to identify with those of our own racial heritage. Being a nationalist is not racist or xenophobic, it's just a modern-day expression of an age old instinct. It is not the politics of division, or at least does not have to be in the destructive sense. To evoke Khrushchev, it can and should be more about 'peaceful coexistence'. The other thing I would like to add is that despite the ramblings of certain numpties on the extreme left, people across the world are not all the same. British people, collectively speaking, are different from the French, the French are different to the Americans, and so on and so forth. The irony is that differences between us today are the net result of nationalism. National boundaries mark different styles of institutions, and these institutions in turn mould our character. Humans have the capacity to transcend these differences, but it is neither desirable or easy to do so. That is why such a construct exists in the first place. Thus, the present bourgeois drive to create a European superstate is being pushed through with reckless speed and with no consideration of the practicalities of such a project. It is unnatural, and largely unwanted, because of our collective desire to identify ourselves with the familiar. As for the question 'Is Britain racist?', it barely deserves qualifying with an answer. In any case, unless one were to undertake an in-depth statistical analysis of the levels of racism in each and every country, and then perform a comparative analysis, it is impossible to answer. Edited by SwalecliffeEagle (05 Jun 2015 5.32pm)
hear, hear.
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derben 06 Jun 15 11.44am | |
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How are we defining 'racist'?
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legaleagle 06 Jun 15 12.01pm | |
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Quote suicideatselhurst at 05 Jun 2015 10.44am
Quote legaleagle at 04 Jun 2015 11.30pm
In former Yugoslavia? No,not the underlying driving force IMO. Though the usual negatives associated with having been at the bottom of the heap and everyone's whipping boys for centuries. Bear in mind,hundreds of years of blind prejudice and manipulation towards blaming all ills on "the other". Also,bear in mind this is a region where hostility to people of the same race and largely culture has occurred too ie from "Bosnian Croats" towards "Bosnian Muslims".It is based on some very dodgy historical and ongoing prejudices,not all of which can be explained by religion or race. Same applies re Serbs and Croats (very similar ethnicity,though different religion) and Serbs and Kosovans (many "Albanian" muslims).But all very much based on prejudice towards "the other". Very much based on hundreds of years of having demonised collectively other "groups" as "the enemy within" and/or "the other" and/or "out to get us". The reason perhaps anti-semitism doesn't feature as much now (though you still hear anti semitic prejudices quite a lot)is that hardly any Jews are left after 1941-45.Differentiating feature of Croatia in that period was that they annihilated most of their Jewish population under their own fascist government,as opposed to the Nazis.Put lots of Serbs and Roma into concentration type camps too, many killed.Tito had some pretty nasty massacre actions against "reactionary elements" in the payback after 1945.The Nazis are thought to have murdered half a million or more Roma. Edited by legaleagle (04 Jun 2015 11.46pm)
And Franjo Tudman, who became the President and "founding father" of the modern-day "new" Croatian state was still saying even in 1990,not long before the war kicked off: All sorts of other lies are being spread today, I do not know what else they will invent. I've heard that I'm of Jewish descent, but I found, I knew of my ancestors in Zagorje from around 350 years ago, and I said, maybe it would be good to have some of that, I guess I would be richer, I might not have become a Communist. Then, as if that's not enough, then they declare that my wife is Jewish or Serbian. Luckily for me, she never was either, although many wives are. And so on and so forth spreading lies ..." Lovely guy.Statues to him all over Croatia.
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legaleagle 06 Jun 15 12.05pm | |
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Quote derben at 06 Jun 2015 11.44am
How are we defining 'racist'?
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