It's hardly apartheid, there are 10 Arab members of the Israeli parliament.

Yes, the Arab world is watching and doing very little to help Palestinian refugees, a very limited number of foreign nationals and wounded are only allowed to cross into Egypt from Gaza.

Most of the Arab world and the worldwide Left wants the destruction of Israel regardless of whatever they do. That's why Israel fights so hard.

I think we agree really, these things always occur in wars. I would point out that allied bombing killed many more than the Blitz did. Also, did the USA really need to drop a second atom bomb?

Israel’s aim is to as completely as possible wipe out Hamas, as the US did to ISIS. There are of course many civilian casualties and Israel should do all it can to minimise them.

Of course there will be future terrorist attacks on Israel and on the West. That would happen anyway regardless of what Israel is doing. It would happen even if Israel was utterly destroyed and all the Jews there killed, as the Islamists want – having done that they would want to concentrate on attacking the West.

Islamism is our enemy and we should be fighting it not supporting it.

There were a couple of points I was trying to tie into today's actions. Mainly as Dresden was mentioned I thought the propaganda element was interesting. However, as pointed out, Hamas haven't killed millions, not have they indoctrinated and mobilised the entire population - maybe they'd like to, I don't know. I didn't want to actually get into a WWII debate.
Personally, I think the Germans and Japanese deserved it. There was no dissent when they were bombing, torturing and killing everyone else. All this following orders and civilians not knowing are Nuremberg and post war lies. Every soldier coming home from the front told his family what was going on - if it wasn't in their own backyards anyway.
Wasn't the first concentration camp near Munich? - not hidden away in a Polish forest.
In my opinion, revisionists have a lot to answer for. I may be harsh but the people were totally complicit in both of those cases. As for the Japanese and their actions in China and against prisoners - and it doesn't even stop there - arguably worse than the Germans. But their reputation is largely intact - why? A US narrative, that's about it.
Had Germany and Japan not been needed against the Commies, then both countries could easily have ceased to exist and I don't think the rest of the world would have been crying too much.

Looks like part of Palestine is going to cease to exist but an Hamas attack killing hundreds does not equate to killing off a population. I think basically everyone except hard line Jews can see that. Even they are probably just deluding themselves and know deep down that this is wrong. There's a lot more I could say but I don't want to go forever.

Red and Blue Army!

Well I respect your view and normally agree with you on most things but we just differ on the WW2 stuff here.

As for Israel/Palestine....it's intractable and horrendous.

I will never support children dying in rubble whoever does it, Hamas, IDF or anyone. As a European I see war as the battlefield amongst armies. Once that standard changes I tend to ask why am I involved, why am I being asked to support side A or B.

Being English/British/European wars in the middle east are only a humanitarian concern for me. I see no justifiable role beyond that....protecting our trade has an argument but not beyond that.

I see us importing millions of foreigners, a large number who would be Muslims and at the same time presenting ourselves as Israel-centric......Again, it's stupid-ville.

If you are going to love Israel then keep Muslim populations out.....I don't want Islam being a factor in my country. I don't want elections in Rochdale or anywhere else being decided by people with loyalties to foreign lands.

Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Mar 2024 2.16pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

And that "reinforces" your support for the murder of children.

You see how this works? You distort any reality inside your mind to support your narrative. That is, even me voicing the opinion that Israel have clearly gone too far - a view now shared across the civilized world - somehow amounts to the support of Hamas (??). This despite the fact that a unicellular amoeba can tell that is not what I am saying.

I suppose I have to look on the bright side. At least you didn't accuse me of antisemitism.

Just catching up here, a post from you much of which I agree!

Protest is always zeitgeist and/or informed by stuff outside the issue. Thus, there was a permanent protest outside the South African embassy for decades; but nobody turned up to protest about massacres in Zimbabwe, Uganda or any other African nation with a genocidal lunatic in charge.

With the conflicts you identify, it is Asian on Asian and also something we can do little about save tut with disapproval, secretly sell arms, and then provide sanctuary for some of those lucky to flee.

This conflict opens up all sorts of other issues. The history you know, but the current protest seems significantly Muslim solidarity. I don't recall an issue having galvanized the Muslim community like this. There have been moments, like the Satanic Verses etc., but nothing on this scale where seats in the House are in jeopardy, as well as some of the folk who sit in them.

For my part, I cant see how any proper thinking person cannot seek a ceasefire and I support that aspect of their protest. But any support for Oct 7 is beyond the pale.

It is obvious Hamas looked to this outcome, but what if they had done this differently? What if they had only attacked armed IDF/police targets? The attacks would have been planned and trained for long in advance. They would only have attacked where they had overwhelming numbers and organisation and thus avoid the sort of embarrassing humiliations the IDF can casually inflict on them. Sure the would have got many bloody noses. However, they have been massacred anyway so what difference being killed then or a month later?

There would be no images of rape, beheading, mutilation and spitting on corpses etc. that so inflamed Israel and the world to justify their current actions. It would be characterized as part of a long running war and just something that happens over there. Had Israel reacted in the way they are, they would have no friends left by now (except you and HKOwen).