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Coronavirus and the impact of Lockdown policy

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ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 15 Aug 23 9.54pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It’s not individuals suffering personal side affects that I was referring to. It was the fact that in a capitalist system where profit is the driving force there will always be scope for corruption. No less, of course, in most other systems but we are discussing the USA. The question therefore is whether the benefits outweigh the harms?

In the US I'd say that paying to be adversely affected is also a factor. Plus, the whole medical insurance scam. I can't answer the whole question as an individual. There's the greater good, of course - but if that comes at a cost, or harm to others then there's a massive ethical question. The same debate could be had about many things but going into it would be nothing to do with this.
For instance, is capitalism a harm to the greater good in itself? It's individualistic and necessarily a harm to many. Individuals are rich at the expense of others. Companies are rich - and seemingly faceless, yet someone benefits - others lose. Some even die but it is what it is and, generally, we accept it. I get the feeling with this debate that this central ethical question is coming up but I can't answer it. I suspect a really rich person may well have a different take on it than I. I heard a debate amongst the mega rich about how long it's sustainable as things might change but get the impression the mega rich have decided to make hay while the sun shines, rather than care about a future for the benefit of everyone.
Except Richard Branson, of course, - he's cool and a hipster who loves us all.

 


Red and Blue Army!

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 16 Aug 23 5.34pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

So you claim that the FDA isn't in bed with the drug companies but wont back that up. Just look at the mass lawsuits against Purdue. The man at the FDA who approved it's use joined Purdue a year later.

So I will give you a brief summary.

- Oxycontin is simply Heroin in tablet form.
- Purdue owned the rights to a very restricted painkiller for end of life treatment e.g. you give it to dying patients who are in agony.
- Richard Sackler and the Purdue board re-branded the drug as Oycontin with the sole intention of mass marketing it in the US as a new pain medication similar to aspirin e.g. take one if you have a twinge in your back.
- It quickly became the drug of choice for existing recreational drug users and worse made addicts out of people who originally took it for legitimate purposes.
- It caused a mass opiate crisis destroying many lives and also increasing crime as people were desperate to pay for it.

- The FDA approved the use of the drug for general use despite warnings from doctors and researchers that it has the same addictive qualities are heroin.

- Their application to the FDA contained many lies e.g. only 1% of patients would become addicted (nonsense claim it's heroin for god sakes).

- The guy who approved it at the FDA joined the company on a fat salary after they groomed him for months whilst he kept rejecting their application and then he changed his mind.

As of today there have been congressional hearings and the company is now controlled by the courts whilst various lawsuits are ongoing.

At best the FDA failed completely to investigate the application at worst some of their staff colluded with Purdue and the FDA had no oversight to prevent this.

I think 'in bed with' implies no independence whatsoever / acting at their beck and call.

Knowing a good deal about this subject (further reading after watching Dopesick) it's not as simple as that, or as comprehensive.

It's not just the FDA that is the issue. It's the whole chain – companies like Purdue lying about studies that showed addiction incentivising sales people to aggressively sell the same lie to doctors across the US with the promise of bonuses, incentives, not just for them but also the doctors themselves – effectively bribes... the list was endless. Some held out, others bought the propaganda, some knowingly. In this particular case the FDA was certainly a big part of the problem through mislabelling, allowing the dry to be effectively prescribed for anything, rather than specific cases with adequate addiction warnings.

As you state, there is a revolving door between the FDA and pharmas, much like there is in government. Constant lobbying just like in many corporate industries. Self-regulation of prescription advice after approval. All these are obvious issues.

All that said, it doesn't mean that absolutely everything to do with Pharma or the FDA is problematic or tainted.

The whole thing was nuts, and the US is still suffering now, fentanyl etc – opioids permanently rewire the brain, and not in a good way.

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Badger11 Flag Beckenham 17 Aug 23 8.13am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

I think 'in bed with' implies no independence whatsoever / acting at their beck and call.

Knowing a good deal about this subject (further reading after watching Dopesick) it's not as simple as that, or as comprehensive.

It's not just the FDA that is the issue. It's the whole chain – companies like Purdue lying about studies that showed addiction incentivising sales people to aggressively sell the same lie to doctors across the US with the promise of bonuses, incentives, not just for them but also the doctors themselves – effectively bribes... the list was endless. Some held out, others bought the propaganda, some knowingly. In this particular case the FDA was certainly a big part of the problem through mislabelling, allowing the dry to be effectively prescribed for anything, rather than specific cases with adequate addiction warnings.

As you state, there is a revolving door between the FDA and pharmas, much like there is in government. Constant lobbying just like in many corporate industries. Self-regulation of prescription advice after approval. All these are obvious issues.

All that said, it doesn't mean that absolutely everything to do with Pharma or the FDA is problematic or tainted.

The whole thing was nuts, and the US is still suffering now, fentanyl etc – opioids permanently rewire the brain, and not in a good way.

I agree with this post.

When I said in bed it's short hand as you rightly point out Purdue are the real villains here but that is the job of the FDA to safeguard the public.

This drug is an opiate and its origins are over 100 years old. The idea that addiction could not be foreseen is laughable.

 


One more point

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 17 Aug 23 6.43pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

I agree with this post.

When I said in bed it's short hand as you rightly point out Purdue are the real villains here but that is the job of the FDA to safeguard the public.

This drug is an opiate and its origins are over 100 years old. The idea that addiction could not be foreseen is laughable.

Fair.

Have started watching the Netflix version - a bit more towards the ‘entertainment’ angle but watchable

Dopesick goes into a lot more detail and feels a bit less hammy, more authentic and well researched. If you have Disney+ and can stomach a back to back, highly recommend.

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Badger11 Flag Beckenham 17 Aug 23 7.53pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Fair.

Have started watching the Netflix version - a bit more towards the ‘entertainment’ angle but watchable

Dopesick goes into a lot more detail and feels a bit less hammy, more authentic and well researched. If you have Disney+ and can stomach a back to back, highly recommend.

Thanks I have watched 4 of the episodes and agree I wanted it to be more serious. I don't have Disney at the moment but will think about it.

 


One more point

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eaglesdare Flag 18 Aug 23 3.30pm Send a Private Message to eaglesdare Add eaglesdare as a friend

[Link] - Ex-medical chief Jonathan Van-Tam takes job with Covid vaccine giant Moderna

 

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 18 Aug 23 4.20pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by eaglesdare

[Link] - Ex-medical chief Jonathan Van-Tam takes job with Covid vaccine giant Moderna

It’s very easy to put a negative spin on things like this but if you step back and away from any inbuilt cynicism and look at things objectively then a different picture can be seen.

Those with the specialist knowledge and experience of Professor Van-Dam are in a very small pool with lots of people fishing in it. The fishers will come from Government, Industry or Academia. So it’s hardly surprising to see people holding jobs in all three during their careers. It’s surely beneficial for everyone to have people with a well rounded knowledge and broad experience in positions of responsibility.

Van-Dam always struck me as someone who communicates well and has a high sense of integrity. For him to be advising a pharmaceutical producer gives me comfort rather than fears.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Teddy Eagle Flag 18 Aug 23 5.21pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It’s very easy to put a negative spin on things like this but if you step back and away from any inbuilt cynicism and look at things objectively then a different picture can be seen.

Those with the specialist knowledge and experience of Professor Van-Dam are in a very small pool with lots of people fishing in it. The fishers will come from Government, Industry or Academia. So it’s hardly surprising to see people holding jobs in all three during their careers. It’s surely beneficial for everyone to have people with a well rounded knowledge and broad experience in positions of responsibility.

Van-Dam always struck me as someone who communicates well and has a high sense of integrity. For him to be advising a pharmaceutical producer gives me comfort rather than fears.

And he is the Muscles from Brussels so can fight his way out if necessary.

 

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Badger11 Flag Beckenham 18 Aug 23 5.25pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It’s very easy to put a negative spin on things like this but if you step back and away from any inbuilt cynicism and look at things objectively then a different picture can be seen.

Those with the specialist knowledge and experience of Professor Van-Dam are in a very small pool with lots of people fishing in it. The fishers will come from Government, Industry or Academia. So it’s hardly surprising to see people holding jobs in all three during their careers. It’s surely beneficial for everyone to have people with a well rounded knowledge and broad experience in positions of responsibility.

Van-Dam always struck me as someone who communicates well and has a high sense of integrity. For him to be advising a pharmaceutical producer gives me comfort rather than fears.

That's one way of looking at it. Of course another way is that Moderna are buying his credibility.

Only Nixon can go to China.

 


One more point

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Stirlingsays Flag 18 Aug 23 5.31pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Dr John Campbell showing Raud Paul at the Senate Health, Labor, and Pensions Committee hearing questioning the Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel on Moderna paying the NIH $400,000,000, which could be seen as making money from the vaccine while dictating government policy on how many times the vaccine is used.

The claim is made by Paul that he's been privately told by the top man at either Pfizer or Moderna...I'd have to rewatch it to be sure of which one.....that increased myocarditis is a result of their vaccines......I think at least in younger age groups....but I'd have to rewatch that as well.

[Link]

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 18 Aug 23 5.53pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

I am both very surprised and disappointed that after it has been comprehensively and irrefutably established that Dr John Campbell is spreading misinformation in his videos that they are still being referenced here as a source of information on Covid.

I was hoping they would now quietly be forgotten and more reliable sources used.

You have only to watch his smug face in the corner registering the eyebrow raising, grimacing and head shaking disapproval to understand what is being attempted here.

Very sad indeed.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays Flag 18 Aug 23 5.57pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

I highly recommend that instead of listening to liars people actually watch and make their own minds up as to who the people are who actually care about the truth and who by contrast are the mentally ill narcissists and in some cases the real paid interests.

By the way I watched the so called 'debunking' video and it's a nit picking joke....like the guy who made it who is on Twitter retweeting the conspiracy theory that covid came from the wet markets.

That's the guy who's been offered up as the voice of reason.

Tells you everything.....perhaps we should look at where his funding comes from.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Aug 2023 6.18pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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