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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Aug 15 1.05pm | |
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Quote matt_himself at 13 Aug 2015 6.45am
Quote serial thriller at 13 Aug 2015 1.26am
Quote matt_himself at 12 Aug 2015 6.54am
Ideologically driven agenda, with no basis in the reality of economics. I was told once that if socialists were made to read economics, there would be no socialists. Edited by matt_himself (12 Aug 2015 7.09am)
There are still loads of great socialist economists out there, from David Graeber to Paul Mason, and the idea that they haven't read economics is really just insulting. If these 'household names' of socialist economic thought were so 'great', how can none of them have come up with a working, practical alternative to capitalism? Before you say they have, they clearly haven't as capitalism rules the planet. Furthermore, 'Socialist economics' is an oxymoron performed by a bunch of elitist professors having a circle jerk about something that will never happen. Capitalism is itself a series of different varied forms of economic definitions, associated by a shared theme, profitability. The UK, France, Sweeden for example all have different economic models, that are capitalist (notably Sweeden incorporates a number of socialist influences). Its not an economic theory in its own right. For example, the Laner-Lerner model, is a socialist theory for balancing economic markets. As for Capitalism ruling the world, it really only begins with the Industrial revolution and Adam Smith, and is probably dominant for around 250 years old.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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leggedstruggle Croydon 13 Aug 15 1.15pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Aug 2015 1.05pm
Quote matt_himself at 13 Aug 2015 6.45am
Quote serial thriller at 13 Aug 2015 1.26am
Quote matt_himself at 12 Aug 2015 6.54am
Ideologically driven agenda, with no basis in the reality of economics. I was told once that if socialists were made to read economics, there would be no socialists. Edited by matt_himself (12 Aug 2015 7.09am)
There are still loads of great socialist economists out there, from David Graeber to Paul Mason, and the idea that they haven't read economics is really just insulting. If these 'household names' of socialist economic thought were so 'great', how can none of them have come up with a working, practical alternative to capitalism? Before you say they have, they clearly haven't as capitalism rules the planet. Furthermore, 'Socialist economics' is an oxymoron performed by a bunch of elitist professors having a circle jerk about something that will never happen. Capitalism is itself a series of different varied forms of economic definitions, associated by a shared theme, profitability. The UK, France, Sweeden for example all have different economic models, that are capitalist (notably Sweeden incorporates a number of socialist influences). Its not an economic theory in its own right. For example, the Laner-Lerner model, is a socialist theory for balancing economic markets. As for Capitalism ruling the world, it really only begins with the Industrial revolution and Adam Smith, and is probably dominant for around 250 years old. It depends how narrowly you define Capitalism. People working for themselves in trades, buying and selling, with market forces driving the economy has been around for thousands of years - rather than everyone being a state employee and working to some ludicrous 5-year-plan.
mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler |
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We are goin up! Coulsdon 13 Aug 15 1.18pm | |
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There's a very good debate conducted by Oxford Union on whether socialism is a viable system. I thought Daniel Hannan nailed it, watch all the way through:
The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. |
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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 13 Aug 15 1.43pm | |
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Look, even Tony Blair has come out and pleaded with Labour voters not to vote in Corbyn. As I said vote him lefties, and you have single handedly given power to the Tories for the next......... however many years you keep him at the helm for. Delusional, socialist fantasist who would bring the country to its knee's from a position of steady recovery, within months of his term in office (God forbid). And if you thought the Tory’s handed Labour their collective arses to them in the last election, wait and see what happens if gets elected. Please god let him win.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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DanH SW2 13 Aug 15 1.47pm | |
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At least with people like him, and even Farage, in politics at least we've actually got people sticking to their beliefs rather than offering up populist bullsh*t.
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Stuk Top half 13 Aug 15 1.55pm | |
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Quote DanH at 13 Aug 2015 1.47pm
At least with people like him, and even Farage, in politics at least we've actually got people sticking to their beliefs rather than offering up populist bullsh*t.
Whether it's their beliefs or not, if you can't actually achieve what you espouse is that not both populist and bulls***?
Optimistic as ever |
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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 13 Aug 15 1.56pm | |
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Granted Danh the comedic value of him and Farage in politics is not to be under estimated, but I look at them both like I did Hollaway and Warnock Ok (ish) in a small pond without much responsibility. But given a seat at the top table, fall woefully short of the mark and out of their depth. Extremist politics don't work, whether they are Left Or Right, the fall of communism, the failure of the 3rd Reich etc etc. Corbyn is effectively the polar opposite of farage, in fact I would go one further, he is actually the lefts Nick Griffin, and the socialist utopian bollicks he spouts should be given the same credence of anything that drivels out of that cease pool Griffin calls a mouth.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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DanH SW2 13 Aug 15 2.11pm | |
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Quote Stuk at 13 Aug 2015 1.55pm
Quote DanH at 13 Aug 2015 1.47pm
At least with people like him, and even Farage, in politics at least we've actually got people sticking to their beliefs rather than offering up populist bullsh*t.
Whether it's their beliefs or not, if you can't actually achieve what you espouse is that not both populist and bulls***? OK, maybe phrased that badly. More offering up whatever boll*cks they think will get them in to power, rather than what they believe in.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Aug 15 2.18pm | |
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Quote leggedstruggle at 13 Aug 2015 1.15pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Aug 2015 1.05pm
Quote matt_himself at 13 Aug 2015 6.45am
Quote serial thriller at 13 Aug 2015 1.26am
Quote matt_himself at 12 Aug 2015 6.54am
Ideologically driven agenda, with no basis in the reality of economics. I was told once that if socialists were made to read economics, there would be no socialists. Edited by matt_himself (12 Aug 2015 7.09am)
There are still loads of great socialist economists out there, from David Graeber to Paul Mason, and the idea that they haven't read economics is really just insulting. If these 'household names' of socialist economic thought were so 'great', how can none of them have come up with a working, practical alternative to capitalism? Before you say they have, they clearly haven't as capitalism rules the planet. Furthermore, 'Socialist economics' is an oxymoron performed by a bunch of elitist professors having a circle jerk about something that will never happen. Capitalism is itself a series of different varied forms of economic definitions, associated by a shared theme, profitability. The UK, France, Sweeden for example all have different economic models, that are capitalist (notably Sweeden incorporates a number of socialist influences). Its not an economic theory in its own right. For example, the Laner-Lerner model, is a socialist theory for balancing economic markets. As for Capitalism ruling the world, it really only begins with the Industrial revolution and Adam Smith, and is probably dominant for around 250 years old. It depends how narrowly you define Capitalism. People working for themselves in trades, buying and selling, with market forces driving the economy has been around for thousands of years - rather than everyone being a state employee and working to some ludicrous 5-year-plan. Yes, but that's just commerce for survival and existance, capitalism promotes the accumulation of wealth as the primary justification of action. There is nothing wrong with having a bit of wealth, the problem comes from the accumulation of wealth for its own end (how much do you actually need). Well we do generally have a UK government for five years, and about 1/3rd of the UK working population is employed by the state.... Capitalism is really about the production of surplus for profit, and is not in and of itself a bad idea. I'd generally agree that in terms of establishing a 'value' on something, Capitalism is a good means of resource management. Things like Globalisation and Free Market economics present a situation in which massive exploitation, the kind seen in early Industrial England (that ultimately inspired Marx and Engles) on a world wide basis, where morality and ethics are secondary to the production of shareholder profitability. I think capitalism isn't necessarily bad, but like any system, it requires regulation and controls to prevent it becoming a system where by power imbalance results in the production of disproportionately unfair and inequality for people in society.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 13 Aug 15 2.27pm | |
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Quote dannyh at 13 Aug 2015 1.43pm
Look, even Tony Blair has come out and pleaded with Labour voters not to vote in Corbyn. As I said vote him lefties, and you have single handedly given power to the Tories for the next......... however many years you keep him at the helm for. Delusional, socialist fantasist who would bring the country to its knee's from a position of steady recovery, within months of his term in office (God forbid). And if you thought the Tory’s handed Labour their collective arses to them in the last election, wait and see what happens if gets elected. Please god let him win.
Curiously, Blair has come out against the only major candidate who actually has stated that Blair should be held accountable over the 2003 Iraq war. Unsurprisingly, he's not a fan, and would prefer the election of someone who'd be largely indistinguishable from the corporate friendly Conservative party. The democracy of the swing constituencies devalues the idea of politics in the UK. Also, it shows the caliber of Blair, commenting on a leadership election. If anyone has destroyed what the Labor Party was, it was him and New Labor, a political party who's politics were based on winning election, not the representation of the labor party supporters. He's basically handed Corbyn a lot of votes. I suspect that Corbyn will actually turn out to be less left wing than the Liberal Democrats anyhow.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Stuk Top half 13 Aug 15 3.08pm | |
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Quote DanH at 13 Aug 2015 2.11pm
Quote Stuk at 13 Aug 2015 1.55pm
Quote DanH at 13 Aug 2015 1.47pm
At least with people like him, and even Farage, in politics at least we've actually got people sticking to their beliefs rather than offering up populist bullsh*t.
Whether it's their beliefs or not, if you can't actually achieve what you espouse is that not both populist and bulls***? OK, maybe phrased that badly. More offering up whatever boll*cks they think will get them in to power, rather than what they believe in.
Optimistic as ever |
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We are goin up! Coulsdon 13 Aug 15 3.14pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 13 Aug 2015 2.27pm
Quote dannyh at 13 Aug 2015 1.43pm
Look, even Tony Blair has come out and pleaded with Labour voters not to vote in Corbyn. As I said vote him lefties, and you have single handedly given power to the Tories for the next......... however many years you keep him at the helm for. Delusional, socialist fantasist who would bring the country to its knee's from a position of steady recovery, within months of his term in office (God forbid). And if you thought the Tory’s handed Labour their collective arses to them in the last election, wait and see what happens if gets elected. Please god let him win.
Curiously, Blair has come out against the only major candidate who actually has stated that Blair should be held accountable over the 2003 Iraq war. Unsurprisingly, he's not a fan, and would prefer the election of someone who'd be largely indistinguishable from the corporate friendly Conservative party. The democracy of the swing constituencies devalues the idea of politics in the UK. Also, it shows the caliber of Blair, commenting on a leadership election. If anyone has destroyed what the Labor Party was, it was him and New Labor, a political party who's politics were based on winning election, not the representation of the labor party supporters. He's basically handed Corbyn a lot of votes. I suspect that Corbyn will actually turn out to be less left wing than the Liberal Democrats anyhow.
The only way Labour will ever change anything is if they win elections. Corbyn will not win an election, in fact he will probably consign them to two decades of electoral defeats.
The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. |
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