9 dead in USA Church Shooting.

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9 dead in USA Church Shooting.

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derben 22 Jun 15 1.16pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 12.53pm Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.24pmUSA was pretty much a blank sheet of paper when it came to multiculturalism, so has more chance of success. Of course there are still ghettos in New York and other US cities where the various communities live apart and guard their territory - do white folks walk through Harlem at night yet? Do black folks feel at ease in certain parts of the Southern States? Most conflicts in history and around the world have at their roots differences in race, religion and culture. The US was founded largely on a basis of slavery, with a large percentage of its population having been transported to the US illegally. The existing population were almost exterminated by incoming migrants. With the white population often having come from the rather 'unliked and persicuted' religous groups of Europe. White Supremacy in the US, was all but the law for most of its history, and that runs deeper in some states than the others. I wouldn't imagine the US to be remotely multicultural, but more of a liberalised seggregationist country, in which poverty and prejudice have propergated that historical factor expedentially through the generations. Would agree with all that. When I said blank sheet of paper, I meant no long establish history and traditions etc, apart from the Native Americans, who were as you say ethnically cleansed. Did the incomers say to them you should welcome us, we are enriching your society with diversity etc? How come they didn't all get along famously? Glad you agree that multiculturalism doesn't really work in the USA, a country often held up as an expamle of where it does work.
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derben

22 Jun 15 1.16pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 12.53pm

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.24pmUSA was pretty much a blank sheet of paper when it came to multiculturalism, so has more chance of success. Of course there are still ghettos in New York and other US cities where the various communities live apart and guard their territory - do white folks walk through Harlem at night yet? Do black folks feel at ease in certain parts of the Southern States? Most conflicts in history and around the world have at their roots differences in race, religion and culture.

The US was founded largely on a basis of slavery, with a large percentage of its population having been transported to the US illegally. The existing population were almost exterminated by incoming migrants. With the white population often having come from the rather 'unliked and persicuted' religous groups of Europe.

White Supremacy in the US, was all but the law for most of its history, and that runs deeper in some states than the others.

I wouldn't imagine the US to be remotely multicultural, but more of a liberalised seggregationist country, in which poverty and prejudice have propergated that historical factor expedentially through the generations.

Would agree with all that. When I said blank sheet of paper, I meant no long establish history and traditions etc, apart from the Native Americans, who were as you say ethnically cleansed. Did the incomers say to them you should welcome us, we are enriching your society with diversity etc? How come they didn't all get along famously? Glad you agree that multiculturalism doesn't really work in the USA, a country often held up as an expamle of where it does work.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 15 1.23pm
Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.18pm The victims of the murderers are certainly not the people they were a decade ago. Scrap all the endless appeals, allow them one and if that fails, go ahead. Society is protected by removing a killer from its midst and saving money avoiding long prison sentences. Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm) Couldn't possibly go horribly wrong.... Its all a moot point the UK will never revert to a Capital Punishment without radically transforming the country. Even the extreme right wing parties only seem to be able to promote it on as basis of hysterical outrage (note if you start executing pedophiles, you'll be spending all day conducting executions). Even if I was pro-death sentences, just executing someone is a total waste. If I was to favour execution it would be by anethsia and organ donation, so that at least it served an objective social purpose. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Jun 15 1.23pm

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.18pm
The victims of the murderers are certainly not the people they were a decade ago. Scrap all the endless appeals, allow them one and if that fails, go ahead. Society is protected by removing a killer from its midst and saving money avoiding long prison sentences.

Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm)

Couldn't possibly go horribly wrong....

Its all a moot point the UK will never revert to a Capital Punishment without radically transforming the country. Even the extreme right wing parties only seem to be able to promote it on as basis of hysterical outrage (note if you start executing pedophiles, you'll be spending all day conducting executions).

Even if I was pro-death sentences, just executing someone is a total waste. If I was to favour execution it would be by anethsia and organ donation, so that at least it served an objective social purpose.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stuk Top half 22 Jun 15 1.27pm
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again. if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again. Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions? Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame. Does he have sympathy for his victims? Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest. only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done. It's going to be a very, very long time unless he waives all trial and appeals. They've got no lethal injections, can't get anymore and electrocution is only an option if chosen by the criminal. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 22 Jun 15 1.27pm

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm

As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again.

if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again.

Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions?

Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame.

Does he have sympathy for his victims?

Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest.

only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done.

It's going to be a very, very long time unless he waives all trial and appeals.

They've got no lethal injections, can't get anymore and electrocution is only an option if chosen by the criminal.

Optimistic as ever

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derben 22 Jun 15 1.33pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 1.23pm Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.18pm The victims of the murderers are certainly not the people they were a decade ago. Scrap all the endless appeals, allow them one and if that fails, go ahead. Society is protected by removing a killer from its midst and saving money avoiding long prison sentences. Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm) Couldn't possibly go horribly wrong.... Its all a moot point the UK will never revert to a Capital Punishment without radically transforming the country. Even the extreme right wing parties only seem to be able to promote it on as basis of hysterical outrage (note if you start executing pedophiles, you'll be spending all day conducting executions). Even if I was pro-death sentences, just executing someone is a total waste. If I was to favour execution it would be by anethsia and organ donation, so that at least it served an objective social purpose. Of course it could go wrong, just like it goes wrong when released murderers kill more people. Mass immigration is radically transforming the country, and if the calls for Sharia Law (supported by some posters on here) are successful, we could have the death penalty in Bradford perhaps. Nothing wrong with a bit of outrage, plenty going on to be outraged about. The use of the death penalty in the past was not based on hysteria. A death penalty should not be the only sentence for crimes deemed serious enough, it should be available to the judge to decide.
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derben

22 Jun 15 1.33pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 1.23pm

Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm)

Couldn't possibly go horribly wrong....

Of course it could go wrong, just like it goes wrong when released murderers kill more people. Mass immigration is radically transforming the country, and if the calls for Sharia Law (supported by some posters on here) are successful, we could have the death penalty in Bradford perhaps. Nothing wrong with a bit of outrage, plenty going on to be outraged about. The use of the death penalty in the past was not based on hysteria. A death penalty should not be the only sentence for crimes deemed serious enough, it should be available to the judge to decide.

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 22 Jun 15 1.34pm
Quote Stuk at 22 Jun 2015 1.27pm Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again. if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again. Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions? Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame. Does he have sympathy for his victims? Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest. only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done. It's going to be a very, very long time unless he waives all trial and appeals. They've got no lethal injections, can't get anymore and electrocution is only an option if chosen by the criminal. Hmmmm lets think what does america have a lot of that could kill a scum bag releatively cheaply with no fuss....I'm sure there must be a way. Oh thats right SHOOT THE DICK HEEED. "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 22 Jun 15 1.34pm

Quote Stuk at 22 Jun 2015 1.27pm

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm

As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again.

if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again.

Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions?

Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame.

Does he have sympathy for his victims?

Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest.

only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done.

It's going to be a very, very long time unless he waives all trial and appeals.

They've got no lethal injections, can't get anymore and electrocution is only an option if chosen by the criminal.

Hmmmm lets think what does america have a lot of that could kill a scum bag releatively cheaply with no fuss....I'm sure there must be a way.

Oh thats right SHOOT THE DICK HEEED.

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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Stuk Top half 22 Jun 15 1.36pm
Quote dannyh at 22 Jun 2015 1.34pm Quote Stuk at 22 Jun 2015 1.27pm Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again. if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again. Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions? Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame. Does he have sympathy for his victims? Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest. only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done. It's going to be a very, very long time unless he waives all trial and appeals. They've got no lethal injections, can't get anymore and electrocution is only an option if chosen by the criminal. Hmmmm lets think what does america have a lot of that could kill a scum bag releatively cheaply with no fuss....I'm sure there must be a way. Oh thats right SHOOT THE DICK HEEED. Criminals? Seems daft but shooting them is not an option. (after arrest that is) Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 22 Jun 15 1.36pm

Quote dannyh at 22 Jun 2015 1.34pm

Quote Stuk at 22 Jun 2015 1.27pm

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm

As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again.

if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again.

Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions?

Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame.

Does he have sympathy for his victims?

Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest.

only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done.

It's going to be a very, very long time unless he waives all trial and appeals.

They've got no lethal injections, can't get anymore and electrocution is only an option if chosen by the criminal.

Hmmmm lets think what does america have a lot of that could kill a scum bag releatively cheaply with no fuss....I'm sure there must be a way.

Oh thats right SHOOT THE DICK HEEED.

Criminals?

Seems daft but shooting them is not an option. (after arrest that is)

Optimistic as ever

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black eagle. south croydon. 22 Jun 15 1.41pm
Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation. Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way.
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black eagle.

south croydon. 22 Jun 15 1.41pm

Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation.

Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way.

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sydtheeagle England 22 Jun 15 1.44pm
Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.18pm The victims of the murderers are certainly not the people they were a decade ago. Scrap all the endless appeals, allow them one and if that fails, go ahead. Society is protected by removing a killer from its midst and saving money avoiding long prison sentences. Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm) But society ISN'T protected by the presence of the death sentence. That's exactly the point. If society gained any benefit then violent crime would be lower in countries with the death penalty than those without it. And so far as I know, it isn't. You can argue that it makes everyone feel better to remove killers, but you can't claim it affords any protection to society at large by doing so. As for saving money, there are some costs that simply have to be borne by civilised societies. A functional penal system is one of them. Besides, executing people isn't much cheaper than imprisoning them for life, so far as I am aware. Yes, limiting their right to appeal would reduce that cost but I don't think -- when you're taking away a person's life -- short cuts are something you want to look for. Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.
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sydtheeagle

England 22 Jun 15 1.44pm

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 12.18pm

The victims of the murderers are certainly not the people they were a decade ago. Scrap all the endless appeals, allow them one and if that fails, go ahead. Society is protected by removing a killer from its midst and saving money avoiding long prison sentences.

Edited by derben (22 Jun 2015 12.19pm)

But society ISN'T protected by the presence of the death sentence. That's exactly the point. If society gained any benefit then violent crime would be lower in countries with the death penalty than those without it. And so far as I know, it isn't. You can argue that it makes everyone feel better to remove killers, but you can't claim it affords any protection to society at large by doing so. As for saving money, there are some costs that simply have to be borne by civilised societies. A functional penal system is one of them. Besides, executing people isn't much cheaper than imprisoning them for life, so far as I am aware. Yes, limiting their right to appeal would reduce that cost but I don't think -- when you're taking away a person's life -- short cuts are something you want to look for.

Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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sydtheeagle England 22 Jun 15 1.50pm
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again. if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again. Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions? Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame. Does he have sympathy for his victims? Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest. only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done. I actually find your post -- using language that equates the value of human life with that of an animal ("put to sleep" ) quite upsetting. No need to explain your thinking to me; I get it. But I think it's extremely wrong. Just my view of course. Whether Roof has sympathy for his victims is neither here nor there. The bigger point is that the families of his victims have sympathy for him. The irony that compassion can be found in those most hurt by the tragedy while the death penalty posturing is left to those like you thousands of miles away from Charleston says it all about whose values are right and whose are wrong. Edited by sydtheeagle (22 Jun 2015 1.50pm) Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.
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sydtheeagle

England 22 Jun 15 1.50pm

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 12.54pm

As one poster said on this thread some killers who are released only go on to do it again.

if they are put to sleep they won't have the chance to do it again.

Your not telling me Roof didn't know there would'nt be a consequence for his actions?

Well death row beckons and Roof has only got himself to blame.

Does he have sympathy for his victims?

Do i have sympathy for him? not in the slightest.

only when Roof is wired up to the chair or about to be given a lethal injection will he think maybe what have i done.

I actually find your post -- using language that equates the value of human life with that of an animal ("put to sleep" ) quite upsetting. No need to explain your thinking to me; I get it. But I think it's extremely wrong. Just my view of course.

Whether Roof has sympathy for his victims is neither here nor there. The bigger point is that the families of his victims have sympathy for him. The irony that compassion can be found in those most hurt by the tragedy while the death penalty posturing is left to those like you thousands of miles away from Charleston says it all about whose values are right and whose are wrong.

Edited by sydtheeagle (22 Jun 2015 1.50pm)

Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God.

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Stuk Top half 22 Jun 15 1.57pm
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 1.41pm Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation. Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way. Most people who kill are beyond rehabilitation if you ask me. He's going to be in jail forever but you can't kill them by any method other than those allowed by law, and you can't bump him up the queue because his crime seems more evil than that of another, already sentenced to death before him. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 22 Jun 15 1.57pm

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 1.41pm

Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation.

Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way.

Most people who kill are beyond rehabilitation if you ask me.

He's going to be in jail forever but you can't kill them by any method other than those allowed by law, and you can't bump him up the queue because his crime seems more evil than that of another, already sentenced to death before him.

Optimistic as ever

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 15 1.59pm
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 1.41pm Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation. Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way. So its alright to inflict evil on evil people, if you think they can't change? That seems neither rational or just. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Jun 15 1.59pm

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 1.41pm

Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation.

Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way.

So its alright to inflict evil on evil people, if you think they can't change? That seems neither rational or just.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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derben 22 Jun 15 2.03pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 1.59pm Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 1.41pm Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation. Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way. So its alright to inflict evil on evil people, if you think they can't change? That seems neither rational or just. Highly rational, justified and sensible if you ask me.
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derben

22 Jun 15 2.03pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 1.59pm

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 1.41pm

Someone who says i must kill black people,supports apartied,pictured with a racist flag and then kills innocent people is beyond rehabilitation.

Dylon Roof is an evil evil person,he deserves whatever punishment comes his way.

So its alright to inflict evil on evil people, if you think they can't change? That seems neither rational or just.

Highly rational, justified and sensible if you ask me.

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