This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
Richard Dawkins Hero
Register | Edit Profile | Subscriptions | Forum Rules | Log In
 SirPeanut  Keston 17 Jun 15 10.30am |
  |
|---|---|
|
One of the strong arguments (there are many!) against religion and belief in God come from locality. Every religion currently being practiced on this planet, as well as every past religion which no longer has followers, has a definite, discernible origin in time and space. Even if the exact beginnings of a religion are murky, that religion still originated in a definite area and in a definite time period. Surely any god or gods which existed and which desired to reveal themselves to humanity would not do this - they would not provide a revelation to only one culture, at one time, in one place. The fact that all religions originated in one specific culture, at one specific time and place, tells us that they are the product of that culture, time and place - and not the product of divine revelation. What is the fate of those who never heard about the supposed one and true God? Did they all go to Hell when they died, simply because God chose not to tell them the way to salvation? Or did they somehow get to Heaven without the redemptive powers of Jesus or even the Jewish law? And if so, if this is possible, then what was the point of sending Jesus or giving the law at all?
There are two kinds of person in this world: |
|
 Alert a moderator to this post |
  |
| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Jun 15 10.44am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote SirPeanut at 17 Jun 2015 10.30am
One of the strong arguments (there are many!) against religion and belief in God come from locality. Every religion currently being practiced on this planet, as well as every past religion which no longer has followers, has a definite, discernible origin in time and space. Even if the exact beginnings of a religion are murky, that religion still originated in a definite area and in a definite time period. Surely any god or gods which existed and which desired to reveal themselves to humanity would not do this - they would not provide a revelation to only one culture, at one time, in one place. The fact that all religions originated in one specific culture, at one specific time and place, tells us that they are the product of that culture, time and place - and not the product of divine revelation. What is the fate of those who never heard about the supposed one and true God? Did they all go to Hell when they died, simply because God chose not to tell them the way to salvation? Or did they somehow get to Heaven without the redemptive powers of Jesus or even the Jewish law? And if so, if this is possible, then what was the point of sending Jesus or giving the law at all? Or that they all tie into a greater cosmic reality, that people of ages, including this one, are attempting to relay. One should always accept the very strong likelihood that people thousands of years ago might have been very much 'filling in the gaps' and relying on their knowledge of the times and existent knowledge's / experiences. The Catholic church struggled a long time with many of these arguments, and came to a number of interesting to absurd conclusions, based on their faith, some of which were quite surprising (they saw the pagan faiths as evidence of the age of the Nephilim in genesis, for example) and the idea or purgatory and the harrowing of hell etc. We're always limited by what our 'situated knowledge's', and we will likely as not look as limited in our capacity to people in several hundred years.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Shifty97 Croydon 17 Jun 15 10.53am |
|
|---|---|
|
I find this funny because although the vast majority of people on this site are very inteligent, people would not expect football fans to be discussing philosophers or philosophy on a fan site. Just so you know, I am not trying to insult the inteligence of anyone on this site
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Jun 15 10.55am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote Shifty97 at 17 Jun 2015 10.53am
I find this funny because although the vast majority of people on this site are very inteligent, people would not expect football fans to be discussing philosophers or philosophy on a fan site. Just so you know, I am not trying to insult the inteligence of anyone on this site We are Nigels after all, we have a reputation to maintain
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| derben 17 Jun 15 11.05am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote SirPeanut at 17 Jun 2015 10.30am
One of the strong arguments (there are many!) against religion and belief in God come from locality. Every religion currently being practiced on this planet, as well as every past religion which no longer has followers, has a definite, discernible origin in time and space. Even if the exact beginnings of a religion are murky, that religion still originated in a definite area and in a definite time period. Surely any god or gods which existed and which desired to reveal themselves to humanity would not do this - they would not provide a revelation to only one culture, at one time, in one place. The fact that all religions originated in one specific culture, at one specific time and place, tells us that they are the product of that culture, time and place - and not the product of divine revelation. What is the fate of those who never heard about the supposed one and true God? Did they all go to Hell when they died, simply because God chose not to tell them the way to salvation? Or did they somehow get to Heaven without the redemptive powers of Jesus or even the Jewish law? And if so, if this is possible, then what was the point of sending Jesus or giving the law at all? Well if God is omnipotent, God could easily look into the minds of these past generations and know whether they would have believed in him and Jesus if given the opportunity!
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| TheJudge 17 Jun 15 11.19am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Jun 2015 9.27am
Quote TheJudge at 17 Jun 2015 8.49am
Quote reborn at 17 Jun 2015 8.36am
LOL sadly for you I live it, I spend all my days when I am not working trying to help other people and significant amounts of my money. You see its not a club, its a way of life. I think the thing that irritates you the most is I don't fit into your close minded and prejudiced view of what a Christian is. I will pray for you, not least for a sense of humour. Lighten up man, you seem so angry at everything.
Edited by TheJudge (17 Jun 2015 8.51am) Dawkins would be incorrect, except on a genetic level (however we cannot presume that genetics defines all behavior and genes are sentient), as such degrees of altruism exist and what is more the case is that people who don't believe resort to rhetoric and abstraction of the individual, in order to demonstrate this. Its a move the goal posts argument, similar to that used in religion, by saying god creates evolution or the big bang, its hiding in the semantic limitations of proof (ie that you can neither truly prove or disprove something). Granted no act is truly selfless, as existence is experienced existentially, so it must tie back to the individual making the action, but that doesn't distract from the fact that its more selfless than selfish (and we shouldn't mistake selfish for egocentric either, a selfish act is not immoral, unless it is committed egocentrically). Wow. Where to begin. Firstly, genes determine behavior for their own survival using the animal as a vehicle. Not very romantic I concede. Human behavior is complex but we must not let that cloud the reality of existence. As for proof of anything. You must realise that just because you cannot disprove something does not make it more or less likely. This is the kind of absurd argument that followers of religion use. The fact that you cannot disprove god is irrelevant. As Dawkins would say: You cannot disprove the flying spaghetti monster either.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| SirPeanut Keston 17 Jun 15 11.25am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 11.05am
Quote SirPeanut at 17 Jun 2015 10.30am
One of the strong arguments (there are many!) against religion and belief in God come from locality. Every religion currently being practiced on this planet, as well as every past religion which no longer has followers, has a definite, discernible origin in time and space. Even if the exact beginnings of a religion are murky, that religion still originated in a definite area and in a definite time period. Surely any god or gods which existed and which desired to reveal themselves to humanity would not do this - they would not provide a revelation to only one culture, at one time, in one place. The fact that all religions originated in one specific culture, at one specific time and place, tells us that they are the product of that culture, time and place - and not the product of divine revelation. What is the fate of those who never heard about the supposed one and true God? Did they all go to Hell when they died, simply because God chose not to tell them the way to salvation? Or did they somehow get to Heaven without the redemptive powers of Jesus or even the Jewish law? And if so, if this is possible, then what was the point of sending Jesus or giving the law at all? Well if God is omnipotent, God could easily look into the minds of these past generations and know whether they would have believed in him and Jesus if given the opportunity! Any deity which desired to be believed in would reveal itself to everyone, not just to a specific person, culture, race or nation. And your point seems to overlook one of the Ten Commandments "You shall have no other Gods before me". Just another example of completely contradictory and confused religious argument.
There are two kinds of person in this world: |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| TheJudge 17 Jun 15 11.29am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote reborn at 17 Jun 2015 9.27am
Quote TheJudge at 17 Jun 2015 8.49am
Quote reborn at 17 Jun 2015 8.36am
LOL sadly for you I live it, I spend all my days when I am not working trying to help other people and significant amounts of my money. You see its not a club, its a way of life. I think the thing that irritates you the most is I don't fit into your close minded and prejudiced view of what a Christian is. I will pray for you, not least for a sense of humour. Lighten up man, you seem so angry at everything.
Edited by TheJudge (17 Jun 2015 8.51am) Anyone can, but very few are. I personally know 00s of people who live their life in this way. Why? Because they believe that its what they are called to do as Christians. What do you do Judge? You seem to be on a moral mountain top most of the time, I am intrigued what got you there?
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| TheJudge 17 Jun 15 11.41am |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote SirPeanut at 17 Jun 2015 11.25am
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 11.05am
Quote SirPeanut at 17 Jun 2015 10.30am
One of the strong arguments (there are many!) against religion and belief in God come from locality. Every religion currently being practiced on this planet, as well as every past religion which no longer has followers, has a definite, discernible origin in time and space. Even if the exact beginnings of a religion are murky, that religion still originated in a definite area and in a definite time period. Surely any god or gods which existed and which desired to reveal themselves to humanity would not do this - they would not provide a revelation to only one culture, at one time, in one place. The fact that all religions originated in one specific culture, at one specific time and place, tells us that they are the product of that culture, time and place - and not the product of divine revelation. What is the fate of those who never heard about the supposed one and true God? Did they all go to Hell when they died, simply because God chose not to tell them the way to salvation? Or did they somehow get to Heaven without the redemptive powers of Jesus or even the Jewish law? And if so, if this is possible, then what was the point of sending Jesus or giving the law at all? Well if God is omnipotent, God could easily look into the minds of these past generations and know whether they would have believed in him and Jesus if given the opportunity! Any deity which desired to be believed in would reveal itself to everyone, not just to a specific person, culture, race or nation. And your point seems to overlook one of the Ten Commandments "You shall have no other Gods before me". Just another example of completely contradictory and confused religious argument.
Hold on... We are oblige to respect daft beliefs.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| Brentmiester_General Front line in the battle against t... 17 Jun 15 11.54am |
|
|---|---|
|
Religion, as Dawkins has stated, is in the death throes.
"We love you Palace, we f@cking hate Man U, We love you Palace, we hate the brighton too, We love you Palace we play in red 'n' blue, so f@ck you, and you ... |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| derben 17 Jun 15 12.07pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote SirPeanut at 17 Jun 2015 11.25am
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 11.05am
Quote SirPeanut at 17 Jun 2015 10.30am
One of the strong arguments (there are many!) against religion and belief in God come from locality. Every religion currently being practiced on this planet, as well as every past religion which no longer has followers, has a definite, discernible origin in time and space. Even if the exact beginnings of a religion are murky, that religion still originated in a definite area and in a definite time period. Surely any god or gods which existed and which desired to reveal themselves to humanity would not do this - they would not provide a revelation to only one culture, at one time, in one place. The fact that all religions originated in one specific culture, at one specific time and place, tells us that they are the product of that culture, time and place - and not the product of divine revelation. What is the fate of those who never heard about the supposed one and true God? Did they all go to Hell when they died, simply because God chose not to tell them the way to salvation? Or did they somehow get to Heaven without the redemptive powers of Jesus or even the Jewish law? And if so, if this is possible, then what was the point of sending Jesus or giving the law at all? Well if God is omnipotent, God could easily look into the minds of these past generations and know whether they would have believed in him and Jesus if given the opportunity! Any deity which desired to be believed in would reveal itself to everyone, not just to a specific person, culture, race or nation. And your point seems to overlook one of the Ten Commandments "You shall have no other Gods before me". Just another example of completely contradictory and confused religious argument. Don't see how you can possibly know the intentions of a omnipotent God. Also, if God chose, being omnipotent, he could change the past so that there were no other gods. Again, if God chose, being omnipotent, God could make everyone who ever lived believe in him.
|
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Jun 15 12.32pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Quote TheJudge at 17 Jun 2015 11.19am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Jun 2015 9.27am
Quote TheJudge at 17 Jun 2015 8.49am
Quote reborn at 17 Jun 2015 8.36am
LOL sadly for you I live it, I spend all my days when I am not working trying to help other people and significant amounts of my money. You see its not a club, its a way of life. I think the thing that irritates you the most is I don't fit into your close minded and prejudiced view of what a Christian is. I will pray for you, not least for a sense of humour. Lighten up man, you seem so angry at everything.
Edited by TheJudge (17 Jun 2015 8.51am) Dawkins would be incorrect, except on a genetic level (however we cannot presume that genetics defines all behavior and genes are sentient), as such degrees of altruism exist and what is more the case is that people who don't believe resort to rhetoric and abstraction of the individual, in order to demonstrate this. Its a move the goal posts argument, similar to that used in religion, by saying god creates evolution or the big bang, its hiding in the semantic limitations of proof (ie that you can neither truly prove or disprove something). Granted no act is truly selfless, as existence is experienced existentially, so it must tie back to the individual making the action, but that doesn't distract from the fact that its more selfless than selfish (and we shouldn't mistake selfish for egocentric either, a selfish act is not immoral, unless it is committed egocentrically). Wow. Where to begin. Firstly, genes determine behavior for their own survival using the animal as a vehicle. Not very romantic I concede. Human behavior is complex but we must not let that cloud the reality of existence. As for proof of anything. You must realise that just because you cannot disprove something does not make it more or less likely. This is the kind of absurd argument that followers of religion use. The fact that you cannot disprove god is irrelevant. As Dawkins would say: You cannot disprove the flying spaghetti monster either. Only if you discount evidence from psychological sciences, that demonstrate quite adequately that genes at best have a influence on behavior and in no what categories it. The paradigm limitations of Biology, which has limited capacity to study behavior, relates to species not individual behavior. Its convenient when dealing with species and generations, but ultimately its reductionist and unsupported from outside of biology. There is a relationship between genetics and behaviors, but in no way is it definitive, and evidence suggests that experience plays a far more important role in determining how we react than genetics. Even neurology suggests that the role of genes in behavior is limited to structural influence, rather than determinism. Whilst humans do not possess free will, its equally absurd to suggest that they lack agency.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
|
| Alert a moderator to this post |
|
Login / RegisterNew users
Registration is now on our new message board
Existing users
To login with your existing username you will need to convert your account over to the new message board.
Sponsors
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2024 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.