Leader's debates

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Leader's debates

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Hoof Hearted 04 Apr 15 10.18am
Quote Mapletree at 03 Apr 2015 6.58pm The generation that has just become pensioners did really well for themselves. They had free education, MIRAS, cheap houses to buy with a proportionately larger housing stock and, most importantly, final salary pension schemes. That will never come again. Of course pensioners' income should be taxed, why wouldn't it be? And, in addition, it was never actually fully paid for by them because the miserable old gits are living far longer than anyone could have guessed. Sure they didn't have some of the material stuff when they were younger. But I don't believe they worked harder than the current generation, yet they will be far wealthier in their retirement than the young of today could ever dream of. They are sitting on the housing stock, bunging up the works. And when they release it they will have a huge windfall out of all proportion to what they worked for. And they will carry on drawing their final salary pension for 40 or 50 years. So for every day they worked they get two days paid during their lifetime. I think the young of today have every right to moan that they are lumbered with the enormous debts of under-funded pensions AND are stuffed with huge housing costs if they live in London. What use was MIRAS when interest rates were 15%+ ? I'd rather have had the interest rates of today thank you! In my day only the elite got to go to Uni by getting the A level results realistically set to attract them to study maths/engineering/law/medicine rather than today's set the bar low targets and subjects like textiles/media studies/dog behaviour/juggling..... Final salary schemes worked until medical science improved general health and people began to live longer. I agree they should be scrapped now but try telling that to the teachers/policemen/firemen etc many who post on here! Pensions are taxed in the same way any income is taxed. If any pensioner is sitting on housing stock it's because he/she got off their arse and worked hard to pay for it through thick and thin often going without holidays abroad and flash TV's..... why shouldn't they enjoy an asset in their old age..... nobody gave it to them! The young of today shouldn't expect everything for free (like music which I've paid for over and over again with 45" singles, Vinyl albums, cassettes and CD's) and stop moaning and work for what they want. If they have fcuk all, it's probably their fault.
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Hoof Hearted 04 Apr 15 10.18am

Quote Mapletree at 03 Apr 2015 6.58pm

The generation that has just become pensioners did really well for themselves. They had free education, MIRAS, cheap houses to buy with a proportionately larger housing stock and, most importantly, final salary pension schemes. That will never come again. Of course pensioners' income should be taxed, why wouldn't it be? And, in addition, it was never actually fully paid for by them because the miserable old gits are living far longer than anyone could have guessed.

Sure they didn't have some of the material stuff when they were younger. But I don't believe they worked harder than the current generation, yet they will be far wealthier in their retirement than the young of today could ever dream of. They are sitting on the housing stock, bunging up the works. And when they release it they will have a huge windfall out of all proportion to what they worked for. And they will carry on drawing their final salary pension for 40 or 50 years. So for every day they worked they get two days paid during their lifetime.

I think the young of today have every right to moan that they are lumbered with the enormous debts of under-funded pensions AND are stuffed with huge housing costs if they live in London.

What use was MIRAS when interest rates were 15%+ ?

I'd rather have had the interest rates of today thank you!

In my day only the elite got to go to Uni by getting the A level results realistically set to attract them to study maths/engineering/law/medicine rather than today's set the bar low targets and subjects like textiles/media studies/dog behaviour/juggling.....

Final salary schemes worked until medical science improved general health and people began to live longer. I agree they should be scrapped now but try telling that to the teachers/policemen/firemen etc many who post on here! Pensions are taxed in the same way any income is taxed.

If any pensioner is sitting on housing stock it's because he/she got off their arse and worked hard to pay for it through thick and thin often going without holidays abroad and flash TV's..... why shouldn't they enjoy an asset in their old age..... nobody gave it to them!

The young of today shouldn't expect everything for free (like music which I've paid for over and over again with 45" singles, Vinyl albums, cassettes and CD's) and stop moaning and work for what they want. If they have fcuk all, it's probably their fault.

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TheJudge 04 Apr 15 7.07pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 04 Apr 2015 10.18am Quote Mapletree at 03 Apr 2015 6.58pm The generation that has just become pensioners did really well for themselves. They had free education, MIRAS, cheap houses to buy with a proportionately larger housing stock and, most importantly, final salary pension schemes. That will never come again. Of course pensioners' income should be taxed, why wouldn't it be? And, in addition, it was never actually fully paid for by them because the miserable old gits are living far longer than anyone could have guessed. Sure they didn't have some of the material stuff when they were younger. But I don't believe they worked harder than the current generation, yet they will be far wealthier in their retirement than the young of today could ever dream of. They are sitting on the housing stock, bunging up the works. And when they release it they will have a huge windfall out of all proportion to what they worked for. And they will carry on drawing their final salary pension for 40 or 50 years. So for every day they worked they get two days paid during their lifetime. I think the young of today have every right to moan that they are lumbered with the enormous debts of under-funded pensions AND are stuffed with huge housing costs if they live in London. What use was MIRAS when interest rates were 15%+ ? I'd rather have had the interest rates of today thank you! In my day only the elite got to go to Uni by getting the A level results realistically set to attract them to study maths/engineering/law/medicine rather than today's set the bar low targets and subjects like textiles/media studies/dog behaviour/juggling..... Final salary schemes worked until medical science improved general health and people began to live longer. I agree they should be scrapped now but try telling that to the teachers/policemen/firemen etc many who post on here! Pensions are taxed in the same way any income is taxed. If any pensioner is sitting on housing stock it's because he/she got off their arse and worked hard to pay for it through thick and thin often going without holidays abroad and flash TV's..... why shouldn't they enjoy an asset in their old age..... nobody gave it to them! The young of today shouldn't expect everything for free (like music which I've paid for over and over again with 45" singles, Vinyl albums, cassettes and CD's) and stop moaning and work for what they want. If they have fcuk all, it's probably their fault. I think a lot of youngsters these days have very comfortable lives at home and when they are asked to go and work for living they find it a bit of a shock. That said, generalisations are easy and I'm sure there are some hard working young people out there.
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TheJudge

04 Apr 15 7.07pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 04 Apr 2015 10.18am

Quote Mapletree at 03 Apr 2015 6.58pm

I think the young of today have every right to moan that they are lumbered with the enormous debts of under-funded pensions AND are stuffed with huge housing costs if they live in London.

What use was MIRAS when interest rates were 15%+ ?

I'd rather have had the interest rates of today thank you!

I think a lot of youngsters these days have very comfortable lives at home and when they are asked to go and work for living they find it a bit of a shock. That said, generalisations are easy and I'm sure there are some hard working young people out there.

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The White Horse 04 Apr 15 7.47pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 03 Apr 2015 8.49pm Harold Macmillan said people "had never had it so good" about the late 1950s. My point is not that the 3 day week is worse than tuition fees. My point is that every generation has its challenges. Pensioners spent half their lives under threat of imminent nuclear destruction but you don't hear them demanding compensation policies from general election candidates. That's a fair point, I think it's tough to argue that quality of life isn't better now than it was 60 years ago. But surely it's a pretty grim state of affairs when the defence of the current situation is "it's better than half a century ago". Broadly speaking, you could say that at almost any stage in human history. As I understand it, one of Miliband's 5 pledges is making sure "the next generation will do better than the last" and given that's a pretty natural phenomenon as society progresses, if there's a dispute about whether the next generation is better off, something has gone seriously wrong. I think young people have been let down for decades, but at least generations in the past had a cushty thing or two, like affordable housing, free education, job security, low utility bills, free transport and so on. What do young people today have that the previous generation didn't? Obviously the "why don't we just think of the children?" chat is irritating and there are certainly some moaning self-important graduates, but I don't think that's markedly worse than it has ever been. Governments should be able to, as a minimum, point towards one or two things that are better for the younger generation as a result of their time in power. Edited by The White Horse (04 Apr 2015 7.48pm) "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

04 Apr 15 7.47pm

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Quote Johnny Eagles at 03 Apr 2015 8.49pm

Harold Macmillan said people "had never had it so good" about the late 1950s.

My point is not that the 3 day week is worse than tuition fees. My point is that every generation has its challenges. Pensioners spent half their lives under threat of imminent nuclear destruction but you don't hear them demanding compensation policies from general election candidates.

That's a fair point, I think it's tough to argue that quality of life isn't better now than it was 60 years ago. But surely it's a pretty grim state of affairs when the defence of the current situation is "it's better than half a century ago". Broadly speaking, you could say that at almost any stage in human history.

As I understand it, one of Miliband's 5 pledges is making sure "the next generation will do better than the last" and given that's a pretty natural phenomenon as society progresses, if there's a dispute about whether the next generation is better off, something has gone seriously wrong.

I think young people have been let down for decades, but at least generations in the past had a cushty thing or two, like affordable housing, free education, job security, low utility bills, free transport and so on. What do young people today have that the previous generation didn't?

Obviously the "why don't we just think of the children?" chat is irritating and there are certainly some moaning self-important graduates, but I don't think that's markedly worse than it has ever been. Governments should be able to, as a minimum, point towards one or two things that are better for the younger generation as a result of their time in power.

Edited by The White Horse (04 Apr 2015 7.48pm)

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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imbored UK 04 Apr 15 9.48pm
This stuff about young people is generalising and detached. A case of 'if you're not me, if you're not my demographic and don't share my problems, then you are the problem'. Exactly the same as the finger you're pointing at others. An attitude this subforum is all too often soaked in. The tribal nature of our primary passion drifting through to our entire view of the world. Self awareness nil. My kids and their friends are generally a hard working bunch and I fail to see how they're a special case. People go to any lengths to avoid self reflection. There's always a problem with 'other people'. Edited by imbored (04 Apr 2015 9.59pm)
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imbored

UK 04 Apr 15 9.48pm

This stuff about young people is generalising and detached. A case of 'if you're not me, if you're not my demographic and don't share my problems, then you are the problem'. Exactly the same as the finger you're pointing at others. An attitude this subforum is all too often soaked in. The tribal nature of our primary passion drifting through to our entire view of the world. Self awareness nil.

My kids and their friends are generally a hard working bunch and I fail to see how they're a special case. People go to any lengths to avoid self reflection. There's always a problem with 'other people'.

Edited by imbored (04 Apr 2015 9.59pm)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 05 Apr 15 12.22pm
Pants on fire. Attachment: IMG_20150405_122111.jpg (229.32Kb)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 05 Apr 15 12.22pm

Pants on fire.

Attachment: IMG_20150405_122111.jpg (229.32Kb)

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Stirlingsays 05 Apr 15 12.35pm
Quote nickgusset at 05 Apr 2015 12.22pm Pants on fire. Cameron has always been a liar.....No shock there....Mind you they pretty much all are....That Aussie Greeno seemed to be honest but then again her whole party is loopy. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

05 Apr 15 12.35pm

Quote nickgusset at 05 Apr 2015 12.22pm

Pants on fire.

Cameron has always been a liar.....No shock there....Mind you they pretty much all are....That Aussie Greeno seemed to be honest but then again her whole party is loopy.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Mapletree Croydon 05 Apr 15 6.19pm
I think a lot of youngsters these days have very comfortable lives at home and when they are asked to go and work for living they find it a bit of a shock. That said, generalisations are easy and *I'm sure there are some hard working young people out there.* Please tell me you said this tongue in cheek
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Mapletree

Croydon 05 Apr 15 6.19pm

I think a lot of youngsters these days have very comfortable lives at home and when they are asked to go and work for living they find it a bit of a shock. That said, generalisations are easy and I'm sure there are some hard working young people out there.

Please tell me you said this tongue in cheek

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Johnny Eagles berlin 08 Apr 15 11.43am
Quote The White Horse at 04 Apr 2015 7.47pm That's a fair point, I think it's tough to argue that quality of life isn't better now than it was 60 years ago. But surely it's a pretty grim state of affairs when the defence of the current situation is "it's better than half a century ago". Broadly speaking, you could say that at almost any stage in human history. That wasn't my point, though. My point was that some things are better (eg, health, technology) and some things are worse (eg, chance of getting a well-paid manufacturing job without any A-levels). Any generation needs to take the rough with the smooth. And especially "YOUNG PEOPLE" (god I hate the way this term is bandied about in the media) should be in the best position to make the most of things. I guess this is where we perhaps differ politically. I think it's down to the individual to take their opportunities where they find them. You (presumably) think that "opportunities" are only there if "society" (ie, the state) provides them. Quote The White Horse at 04 Apr 2015 7.47pm I think young people have been let down for decades, but at least generations in the past had a cushty thing or two, like affordable housing, free education, job security, low utility bills, free transport and so on. What do young people today have that the previous generation didn't? I think this excessively focuses on the negatives. It also encapsulates exactly what annoys me about the "debate" we (as in society) are having about this issue. Education was not just free but a lot BETTER in the past cough Antony Crosland cough. Houses were cheaper. Manual jobs were better paid. I'll give you all that. But -- and I return to my original point -- other things are a lot better. Healthcare. Laptops. Smartphones. The internet. International travel opportunities. Not growing up - like my mum - with bed bugs, an outdoor toilet and a Polish lodger sleeping in the hallway. ...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...
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Johnny Eagles

berlin 08 Apr 15 11.43am

Quote The White Horse at 04 Apr 2015 7.47pm

That wasn't my point, though. My point was that some things are better (eg, health, technology) and some things are worse (eg, chance of getting a well-paid manufacturing job without any A-levels).

Any generation needs to take the rough with the smooth. And especially "YOUNG PEOPLE" (god I hate the way this term is bandied about in the media) should be in the best position to make the most of things.

I guess this is where we perhaps differ politically. I think it's down to the individual to take their opportunities where they find them. You (presumably) think that "opportunities" are only there if "society" (ie, the state) provides them.

Quote The White Horse at 04 Apr 2015 7.47pm

I think this excessively focuses on the negatives. It also encapsulates exactly what annoys me about the "debate" we (as in society) are having about this issue.

Education was not just free but a lot BETTER in the past *cough* Antony Crosland *cough*. Houses were cheaper. Manual jobs were better paid. I'll give you all that.

But -- and I return to my original point -- other things are a lot better. Healthcare. Laptops. Smartphones. The internet. International travel opportunities. Not growing up - like my mum - with bed bugs, an outdoor toilet and a Polish lodger sleeping in the hallway.

...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 08 Apr 15 12.01pm
Did anyone see the Scottish one last night? According to John Pienaar (CPFC Fan) this morning Sturgeon didn't do as well and got a bit of a kicking on the detail. N.B. Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Sturgeon took over from Salmon(d) the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 08 Apr 15 12.01pm

Did anyone see the Scottish one last night?

According to John Pienaar (CPFC Fan) this morning Sturgeon didn't do as well and got a bit of a kicking on the detail.

N.B. Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Sturgeon took over from Salmon(d)

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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Stuk Top half 08 Apr 15 12.33pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Apr 2015 12.01pm Did anyone see the Scottish one last night? According to John Pienaar (CPFC Fan) this morning Sturgeon didn't do as well and got a bit of a kicking on the detail. N.B. Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Sturgeon took over from Salmon(d) Christ no. Almost didn't watch the ITV one because I couldn't be bothered to hear the regional moaning. I find it amusing that they have to advertise themselves at a football ground. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 08 Apr 15 12.33pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Apr 2015 12.01pm

Did anyone see the Scottish one last night?

According to John Pienaar (CPFC Fan) this morning Sturgeon didn't do as well and got a bit of a kicking on the detail.

N.B. Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Sturgeon took over from Salmon(d)

Christ no. Almost didn't watch the ITV one because I couldn't be bothered to hear the regional moaning.

I find it amusing that they have to advertise themselves at a football ground.

Optimistic as ever

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The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 08 Apr 15 3.38pm
Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 03 Apr 2015 9.25pm Quote Mapletree at 03 Apr 2015 7.18pm Quote Johnny Eagles at 03 Apr 2015 7.10pm Alright, we do all like a moan and politics often amounts to just different interest groups moaning. But I've thought about this a lot - there was an excellent radio 4 documentary about it a while ago - and I just don't accept that things are so bad or that "YOUNG PEOPLE" are so hard done by that it warrants specific policies or is a key general election. Yes, there are problems (eg, housing and student debt) but that's life. My parents had problems too (eg, the 3 day week, IMF bailouts, growing up in a slum) and so did my grandparents did too (eg, the great depression and a world war). You take the rough with the smooth. There's no human right to a university education or home ownership. The opportunities afforded today by cheap travel, the internet, better healthcare and new technology mean "YOUNG PEOPLE" are going to live longer, healthier and in many ways more fulfilling lives. Going after pensioners because they've got something you want is divisive and frankly I find it pitiful. Edited by Johnny Eagles (03 Apr 2015 7.15pm) I went through the three day weeks and I'm not a pensioner. It really wasn't that bad, as I recall it was about the same time that we had 'never had it so good'. I'm not having a pop at pensioners. I am simply saying that there is in no way a level playing field for this generation. They don't get the benefits of the older generation and also have an overhang of debt created by them. I would suggest that your memory is slightly clouded. Power cuts, manufacturers struggling. It was a fecking nightmare. Indeed - the country was on its knees more often than Katie Price in the back alley behind a football clubs Player of the year disco in the 1970's Edited by The Sash (08 Apr 2015 3.43pm) As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014
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The Sash

Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 08 Apr 15 3.38pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 03 Apr 2015 9.25pm

Quote Mapletree at 03 Apr 2015 7.18pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 03 Apr 2015 7.10pm

Alright, we do all like a moan and politics often amounts to just different interest groups moaning.

But I've thought about this a lot - there was an excellent radio 4 documentary about it a while ago - and I just don't accept that things are so bad or that "YOUNG PEOPLE" are so hard done by that it warrants specific policies or is a key general election.

Yes, there are problems (eg, housing and student debt) but that's life. My parents had problems too (eg, the 3 day week, IMF bailouts, growing up in a slum) and so did my grandparents did too (eg, the great depression and a world war).

You take the rough with the smooth. There's no human right to a university education or home ownership. The opportunities afforded today by cheap travel, the internet, better healthcare and new technology mean "YOUNG PEOPLE" are going to live longer, healthier and in many ways more fulfilling lives. Going after pensioners because they've got something you want is divisive and frankly I find it pitiful.

Edited by Johnny Eagles (03 Apr 2015 7.15pm)

I went through the three day weeks and I'm not a pensioner. It really wasn't that bad, as I recall it was about the same time that we had 'never had it so good'.

I'm not having a pop at pensioners. I am simply saying that there is in no way a level playing field for this generation. They don't get the benefits of the older generation and also have an overhang of debt created by them.

I would suggest that your memory is slightly clouded. Power cuts, manufacturers struggling. It was a fecking nightmare.

Indeed - the country was on its knees more often than Katie Price in the back alley behind a football clubs Player of the year disco in the 1970's

Edited by The Sash (08 Apr 2015 3.43pm)

As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014

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serial thriller The Promised Land 08 Apr 15 4.16pm
Quote matt_himself at 03 Apr 2015 6.44pm Quote serial thriller at 03 Apr 2015 12.09pm Quote nickgusset at 03 Apr 2015 12.06pm Quote serial thriller at 03 Apr 2015 12.04pm Quote nickgusset at 03 Apr 2015 11.32am Thank goodness Nigel was there to warn us all about all those foreigners with aids coming over here. I was more worried about these '10 ex-communist countries' all upping sticks and coming over 'ere. And there was me thinking the Red Scare was a thing of the past! Oh thankyou Nigel for saving us! "Swoon" I have just got how much you lot are scared of Nigel and UKiP. It makes perfect sense. The left, of all hues, is intellectually and spiritually led by a comparatively rich & educated middle class clique. Miliband has two f***ing kitchens! The SWP and the Greens are middle class intellectuals playing Che Guevara. They have alienated the working class and detest the under class. The snobbery the left, of all hues, has towards these people, despite the the fact they are the marginalised groups these people claim to represent, has driven a wedge between the two. Nigel is getting support from the working class and he underclass. He is able to represent them and his message is respected by these people. All the left can do is sling mud and claim Nigel is racist, bigoted and beyond contempt. But the left cannot offer an alternative who resonates with these people. I am sure the response will be 'Lolz'. However the lefties in here know that I what I am saying is true and are privately wringing their hands and despairing that no one on their side can articulate an agenda and whose message resonates with the working and underclasses in a manner Nigel does. This post would make a lot more sense if UKIP actually had the majority of the working class vote, but they don't. Amazingly Labour still do, despite the fact that, like you said, their leadership are predominantly middle-class centrists. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the main demographic of UKIP voters is old white men. What does that say about dear old Nige, that he appeals to people who look a bit like, errr, himself? On a side note, I'm intrigued by what you mean when you say 'the left...is spiritually led by a comparatively rich and educated middle class clique'. Who are these spiritual leaders? Russell Brand??? Edited by serial thriller (08 Apr 2015 4.18pm) If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 08 Apr 15 4.16pm

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Quote matt_himself at 03 Apr 2015 6.44pm

Quote serial thriller at 03 Apr 2015 12.09pm

Quote nickgusset at 03 Apr 2015 12.06pm

Quote serial thriller at 03 Apr 2015 12.04pm

Quote nickgusset at 03 Apr 2015 11.32am

Thank goodness Nigel was there to warn us all about all those foreigners with aids coming over here.

I was more worried about these '10 ex-communist countries' all upping sticks and coming over 'ere. And there was me thinking the Red Scare was a thing of the past!

Oh thankyou Nigel for saving us! "Swoon"

I have just got how much you lot are scared of Nigel and UKiP.

It makes perfect sense.

The left, of all hues, is intellectually and spiritually led by a comparatively rich & educated middle class clique. Miliband has two f***ing kitchens! The SWP and the Greens are middle class intellectuals playing Che Guevara. They have alienated the working class and detest the under class. The snobbery the left, of all hues, has towards these people, despite the the fact they are the marginalised groups these people claim to represent, has driven a wedge between the two.

Nigel is getting support from the working class and he underclass. He is able to represent them and his message is respected by these people. All the left can do is sling mud and claim Nigel is racist, bigoted and beyond contempt. But the left cannot offer an alternative who resonates with these people.

I am sure the response will be 'Lolz'. However the lefties in here know that I what I am saying is true and are privately wringing their hands and despairing that no one on their side can articulate an agenda and whose message resonates with the working and underclasses in a manner Nigel does.

This post would make a lot more sense if UKIP actually had the majority of the working class vote, but they don't. Amazingly Labour still do, despite the fact that, like you said, their leadership are predominantly middle-class centrists.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the main demographic of UKIP voters is old white men. What does that say about dear old Nige, that he appeals to people who look a bit like, errr, himself?

On a side note, I'm intrigued by what you mean when you say 'the left...is spiritually led by a comparatively rich and educated middle class clique'. Who are these spiritual leaders? Russell Brand???

Edited by serial thriller (08 Apr 2015 4.18pm)

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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