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Gaza Strip 'invades' Israel.
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 EverybodyDannsNow  SE19 27 Feb 24 3.10pm |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
The population density of Gaza is far higher than Ukraine, Russia or the disputed regions around Crimea, therefore the casualty rate logically would likely be greater on a 'per bomb' basis. Ukraine civilians have been allowed sanctuary in neighbouring countries and so civilian deaths are minimised(?). What we are seeing in Gaza is that neighbouring countries are not opening their doors. Egypt has a border with Gaza but as others have pointed out on this forum, they don't want an influx of potentially radical people who are diametrically opposed to the ruling position in Egypt. In addition they don't want to be seen as helping Israel by clearing Gaza for them. The geography, both physical and political is different. Russia have deliberately targeted densely populated areas, hit civilians targets and used cluster bombs and other such 'unguided' artillery throughout their campaign - there's no way Russia have 'minimised' civilian deaths - they've been specifically accused of doing the opposite. Despite that, an estimated 10,000 civilians have been killed in Ukraine in just over a year of fighting. Most reports have Palestinian civilians casualties at around 30,000 in less than half that time. Of course the geography of the regions is a huge factor, but it still does not make the Israel invasion unique in military terms, and it doesn't explain the huge discrepancies in outcome.
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| Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 27 Feb 24 3.20pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Russia have deliberately targeted densely populated areas, hit civilians targets and used cluster bombs and other such 'unguided' artillery throughout their campaign - there's no way Russia have 'minimised' civilian deaths - they've been specifically accused of doing the opposite. Despite that, an estimated 10,000 civilians have been killed in Ukraine in just over a year of fighting. Most reports have Palestinian civilians casualties at around 30,000 in less than half that time. Of course the geography of the regions is a huge factor, but it still does not make the Israel invasion unique in military terms, and it doesn't explain the huge discrepancies in outcome. If you are a civilian in Ukraine you have options; stay put, move to another part of the country or apply to neighbouring countries for shelter. Gaza residents have nowhere to flee to; their state is too small to offer alternatives and their neighbours don’t want them. Consequently there are bound to be more casualties in Gaza. I would also mention that during WW2, the Underground was opened up to shelter civilians from German bomb attacks. Not aware that the Gaza authorities are providing the same underground tunnel protection to civilians; their citizens are expendable to bolster sympathy from the West. It appears to be working.
hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing. |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 27 Feb 24 3.30pm |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
If you are a civilian in Ukraine you have options; stay put, move to another part of the country or apply to neighbouring countries for shelter. Gaza residents have nowhere to flee to; their state is too small to offer alternatives and their neighbours don’t want them. Consequently there are bound to be more casualties in Gaza. I would also mention that during WW2, the Underground was opened up to shelter civilians from German bomb attacks. Not aware that the Gaza authorities are providing the same underground tunnel protection to civilians; their citizens are expendable to bolster sympathy from the West. It appears to be working. What you're describing in not allowing civilians to leave is a war crime, FYI. As well as providing escape routes for civilians, you'd expect an advanced military conducting operations in such a region to do so with due caution to civilian life and infrastructure... but alas. Your last line seems to suggest that the death of 30,000 civilians, many of whom are children, should somehow not bolster sympathy. If Israel wanted to stop this bolstering of sympathy, they could just stop murdering civilians?
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| Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 27 Feb 24 3.52pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
What you're describing in not allowing civilians to leave is a war crime, FYI. As well as providing escape routes for civilians, you'd expect an advanced military conducting operations in such a region to do so with due caution to civilian life and infrastructure... but alas. Your last line seems to suggest that the death of 30,000 civilians, many of whom are children, should somehow not bolster sympathy. If Israel wanted to stop this bolstering of sympathy, they could just stop murdering civilians? Egypt could open its border, but it doesn’t. If Hamas didn’t hide within a civilian population, then you’d get less civilian casualties. I am not saying that I don’t have sympathy; I am saying that Hamas is deliberately allowing its civilians to be killed for propaganda purposes. Yes, Israel could stop, so could Hamas but there is hatred that we can’t comprehend. A return of kidnapped Israelis would help, but only now is there a glimmer of hope that this might happen. Is that because Israel has done what it has done or because Hamas realise that its Arab neighbours are not joining in on the fight?
hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing. |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 27 Feb 24 4.02pm |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Egypt could open its border, but it doesn’t. If Hamas didn’t hide within a civilian population, then you’d get less civilian casualties. I am not saying that I don’t have sympathy; I am saying that Hamas is deliberately allowing its civilians to be killed for propaganda purposes. Yes, Israel could stop, so could Hamas but there is hatred that we can’t comprehend. A return of kidnapped Israelis would help, but only now is there a glimmer of hope that this might happen. Is that because Israel has done what it has done or because Hamas realise that its Arab neighbours are not joining in on the fight? You just seem to trying to allocate blame to everyone except the people doing the killing... Egypt could do this, the terrorists could do that... how about the military super-power stops bombing civilians areas? That's surely point number 1 in terms of ways to save civilians. You say "Israel could stop, so could Hamas" - what exactly could Hamas stop? How many Israeli casualties have there been since October 8th? Which side do you think hold more hostages?
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| Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 27 Feb 24 4.36pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
You just seem to trying to allocate blame to everyone except the people doing the killing... Egypt could do this, the terrorists could do that... how about the military super-power stops bombing civilians areas? That's surely point number 1 in terms of ways to save civilians. You say "Israel could stop, so could Hamas" - what exactly could Hamas stop? How many Israeli casualties have there been since October 8th? Which side do you think hold more hostages? You seem to want one side to play by the rules and not the other. Would Israel be doing what it is doing if Hamas hadn’t attacked back in October? What could Hamas do? How about agreeing to return the hostages if the Israelis stop their actions? One a day returned as long as the fighting stops; perhaps with some form of guarantees? Who holds more hostages? Hamas. Don’t confuse people in prison with hostages? As to stop bombing civilian areas; please tell the Israelis where Hamas fighters are located so that civilian deaths can be avoided. There have not been Israeli casualties caused by Hamas since their initial attack that I am aware of because Israel has taken the fight to Hamas on their territory. Forces inside Lebanon have however killed civilians since.
hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing. |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 27 Feb 24 5.14pm |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
You seem to want one side to play by the rules and not the other. Would Israel be doing what it is doing if Hamas hadn’t attacked back in October? What could Hamas do? How about agreeing to return the hostages if the Israelis stop their actions? One a day returned as long as the fighting stops; perhaps with some form of guarantees? Who holds more hostages? Hamas. Don’t confuse people in prison with hostages? As to stop bombing civilian areas; please tell the Israelis where Hamas fighters are located so that civilian deaths can be avoided. There have not been Israeli casualties caused by Hamas since their initial attack that I am aware of because Israel has taken the fight to Hamas on their territory. Forces inside Lebanon have however killed civilians since. For the umpteenth time, yes I hold Israel to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation, as should anyone. To suggest anything other than that is ludicrous. I don’t think there’s any benefit in further exchange - your posts are just swaying further and further into parroting Israeli propaganda; Israel have no hostages, this all started on October 7th and this is the only conflict in history where combatants have hid amongst civilian populations. Apparently any responsibility to minimise civilian deaths goes away if this is the case. What a miracle that there have no recent Israeli casualties in this desperate fight for their survival. Some war.
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cryrst  The garden of England 27 Feb 24 5.28pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
For the umpteenth time, yes I hold Israel to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation, as should anyone. To suggest anything other than that is ludicrous. I don’t think there’s any benefit in further exchange - your posts are just swaying further and further into parroting Israeli propaganda; Israel have no hostages, this all started on October 7th and this is the only conflict in history where combatants have hid amongst civilian populations. Apparently any responsibility to minimise civilian deaths goes away if this is the case. What a miracle that there have no recent Israeli casualties in this desperate fight for their survival. Some war. They’re not though are they. He puts perfectly valid reason about why it’s happening but you can’t bring yourself to admit the points made are actually how it is. Never mind though as shutting down a conversation is as good as being correct in some quarters!
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 27 Feb 24 5.40pm |
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Originally posted by cryrst
They’re not though are they. He puts perfectly valid reason about why it’s happening but you can’t bring yourself to admit the points made are actually how it is. Never mind though as shutting down a conversation is as good as being correct in some quarters! Thanks for another excellent contribution. Please stop replying to my posts.
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| cryrst The garden of England 27 Feb 24 6.57pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Thanks for another excellent contribution. Please stop replying to my posts. Don’t post then or actually answer the question or just ignore them. I won’t be offended but silence is golden as the saying goes.
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HKOwen  Hong Kong 27 Feb 24 10.50pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
You just seem to trying to allocate blame to everyone except the people doing the killing... Egypt could do this, the terrorists could do that... how about the military super-power stops bombing civilians areas? That's surely point number 1 in terms of ways to save civilians. You say "Israel could stop, so could Hamas" - what exactly could Hamas stop? How many Israeli casualties have there been since October 8th? Which side do you think hold more hostages? Hamas could stop shooting rockets, stop fighting in Gaza and stop using the population as human shields
Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 Feb 24 11.06pm |
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Apparently Netanyahu believes that 82% of Americans support Israel in its actions in Gaza as a consequence of a recent poll. Does that seem possible? I can believe that 82% would say yes to a question that asked if Israel has a right to exist or retaliate with overwhelming force after the actions of Hamas, but to ignore the suffering of civilians, refuse aid and humanitarian support? My concerns about Netanyahu predate this war. I was expressing them here months ago as he attempted to rewrite the constitution and take control of the Supreme Court. Having been in Israel just a few weeks before Hamas came over the border to murder so many and set all of the mayhem in motion I saw some of the characteristics of the Israeli people first hand. My wife describes them as the unfriendliest people she has ever spent time with and like me she has travelled widely. We spent a week on a cruise of the Eastern Med after our stay in Israel on a ship leaving from Haifa, where almost everyone was Israeli. At no point did we have any social interactions or even a “good morning”. I don’t know the relevance other than they are very tribal, suspicious and not at all like anyone else I have encountered. They don’t think like us. Netanyahu seems the embodiment of this. I know the USA has many people with strange ideas but 82%?
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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