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cryrst The garden of England 13 Aug 21 5.58am
Originally posted by Lombardinho Fair do's, cryrst. I didn't know that about the concrete or lack of it. But it's the government departments contained within Building 7 that push me towards smelling a rat. So George Bush or someone at the top must have paid 20 individuals to kill themselves,passengers and 1000s more in the towers to conceal evidence. Alongside knowing exactly how to dismember the said towers in such a way as to fall directly onto another building so destroying it and everything inside. Wouldn't a gas explosion have been easier? I will add that in 20 years not a shred of evidence either in digital or verbal has been shown. It's a bit jason Bourne IMHO.
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cryrst

The garden of England 13 Aug 21 5.58am

Originally posted by Lombardinho

Fair do's, cryrst.
I didn't know that about the concrete or lack of it.
But it's the government departments contained within Building 7 that push me towards smelling a rat.

So George Bush or someone at the top must have paid 20 individuals to kill themselves,passengers and 1000s more in the towers to conceal evidence. Alongside knowing exactly how to dismember the said towers in such a way as to fall directly onto another building so destroying it and everything inside. Wouldn't a gas explosion have been easier?
I will add that in 20 years not a shred of evidence either in digital or verbal has been shown.
It's a bit jason Bourne IMHO.

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Matov 13 Aug 21 6.19am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I differ with you a bit here. You say those soldiers died for nothing. I disagree with that on two counts. Firstly, within that 1800 hundred odd 55 British died that day and in my book that meant there was a blood price to pay....that's how I think of it certainly. Secondly, the word soldier doesn't have include the words sold and die for nothing. I come from a military family and the risk of death when you sign up is a small but real part of the package. If you're infanty you are literally the tip of the spear with the primary point of your job to learn how to effectively kill people or be killed. I'm not heartless but 500 soldiers over twenty years isn't even ten minutes of the Somme. I certainly think the way the media has trained people to think about modern day military deaths blows my mind because when I was growing up with the Falklands going on the mindset was very different. And as I said, the number of deaths we took is down to idealistic political decisions from both Bush and Blair. Their Disney land neo con ideas about changing that deeply Islamic country into a western supporting democracy reveals the complete foolery of the modern politician. I'll agree with you on this.....we wasted lives staying there...and that is on their poor judgment, that's for certain. The ideal of wiping the Taleban from the face of the earth was a good one then and a good one now. But those lives have been wasted if, some 20 years later, the Taleban are not only back in power but probably stronger for it. Beat the Russians and now the almighty West. Under Trump, Islamic fundamentalism suffered a massive blow when IS were wiped out. Within less than a year of Biden stealing the election, Islamic fundamentalism has received its biggest boost ever. And it is huge. IS were only ever, a best, a bunch of fanatics who crumbled under air-attacks and the Syrian Army. It's more than conceivable that within the next 5 years the Taleban will be offered a seat at the UN. China are already saying that will recognize its legitimate right to govern. Every Islamic fundamentalist in the world will be able to look at Afghanistan and take great strength from it. And they will be right to do so. That is the point. Plus creating a massive stream of refugees, all of whom have a perfectly legitimate reason to flee. And I hope they make it here in their hundreds of thousands. The UK deserves to pay a price for its part in this f*** up. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

13 Aug 21 6.19am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I differ with you a bit here.

You say those soldiers died for nothing. I disagree with that on two counts.

Firstly, within that 1800 hundred odd 55 British died that day and in my book that meant there was a blood price to pay....that's how I think of it certainly.

Secondly, the word soldier doesn't have include the words sold and die for nothing. I come from a military family and the risk of death when you sign up is a small but real part of the package. If you're infanty you are literally the tip of the spear with the primary point of your job to learn how to effectively kill people or be killed.

I'm not heartless but 500 soldiers over twenty years isn't even ten minutes of the Somme.
I certainly think the way the media has trained people to think about modern day military deaths blows my mind because when I was growing up with the Falklands going on the mindset was very different.

And as I said, the number of deaths we took is down to idealistic political decisions from both Bush and Blair. Their Disney land neo con ideas about changing that deeply Islamic country into a western supporting democracy reveals the complete foolery of the modern politician.

I'll agree with you on this.....we wasted lives staying there...and that is on their poor judgment, that's for certain.

The ideal of wiping the Taleban from the face of the earth was a good one then and a good one now. But those lives have been wasted if, some 20 years later, the Taleban are not only back in power but probably stronger for it. Beat the Russians and now the almighty West.

Under Trump, Islamic fundamentalism suffered a massive blow when IS were wiped out. Within less than a year of Biden stealing the election, Islamic fundamentalism has received its biggest boost ever.

And it is huge. IS were only ever, a best, a bunch of fanatics who crumbled under air-attacks and the Syrian Army. It's more than conceivable that within the next 5 years the Taleban will be offered a seat at the UN. China are already saying that will recognize its legitimate right to govern. Every Islamic fundamentalist in the world will be able to look at Afghanistan and take great strength from it. And they will be right to do so. That is the point.

Plus creating a massive stream of refugees, all of whom have a perfectly legitimate reason to flee. And I hope they make it here in their hundreds of thousands. The UK deserves to pay a price for its part in this f*** up.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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georgenorman 13 Aug 21 9.59am
Is this the same Taliban that we treated as heroes when they were fighting the Russians?
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georgenorman

13 Aug 21 9.59am

Is this the same Taliban that we treated as heroes when they were fighting the Russians?

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Aug 21 11.53am
Originally posted by Matov The ideal of wiping the Taleban from the face of the earth was a good one then and a good one now. But those lives have been wasted if, some 20 years later, the Taleban are not only back in power but probably stronger for it. Beat the Russians and now the almighty West. Under Trump, Islamic fundamentalism suffered a massive blow when IS were wiped out. Within less than a year of Biden stealing the election, Islamic fundamentalism has received its biggest boost ever. And it is huge. IS were only ever, a best, a bunch of fanatics who crumbled under air-attacks and the Syrian Army. It's more than conceivable that within the next 5 years the Taleban will be offered a seat at the UN. China are already saying that will recognize its legitimate right to govern. Every Islamic fundamentalist in the world will be able to look at Afghanistan and take great strength from it. And they will be right to do so. That is the point. Plus creating a massive stream of refugees, all of whom have a perfectly legitimate reason to flee. And I hope they make it here in their hundreds of thousands. The UK deserves to pay a price for its part in this f*** up. From all I can sense, although Taliban culture is centuries behind ours, cruel and oppressive, they are not like ISIS. Not yet anyway. They restrict their activities to their own area and don't appear to have offshoots elsewhere. ISIS may have been muted, but Islamic fundamentalism has not been killed. It will continue to resurface whilst the funding to support it remains intact. So surely the way to deal with this is to try to reduce their access to the funds needed to facilitate their activities? Which it seems comes primarily from Saudi. Trump had no part in "wiping out" ISIS! The best you can say is that the Joint Chiefs managed to stop him withdrawing too early. The Biden administration is clearly following a different approach. It's too early to even know what other elements to that approach may be, let alone whether it will succeed, but if the USA is tired of constant wars which fail, then adopting a new strategy is at least not just repeating failure. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 13 Aug 21 11.53am

Originally posted by Matov

Under Trump, Islamic fundamentalism suffered a massive blow when IS were wiped out. Within less than a year of Biden stealing the election, Islamic fundamentalism has received its biggest boost ever.

From all I can sense, although Taliban culture is centuries behind ours, cruel and oppressive, they are not like ISIS. Not yet anyway. They restrict their activities to their own area and don't appear to have offshoots elsewhere.

ISIS may have been muted, but Islamic fundamentalism has not been killed. It will continue to resurface whilst the funding to support it remains intact. So surely the way to deal with this is to try to reduce their access to the funds needed to facilitate their activities? Which it seems comes primarily from Saudi.

Trump had no part in "wiping out" ISIS! The best you can say is that the Joint Chiefs managed to stop him withdrawing too early.

The Biden administration is clearly following a different approach. It's too early to even know what other elements to that approach may be, let alone whether it will succeed, but if the USA is tired of constant wars which fail, then adopting a new strategy is at least not just repeating failure.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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jeeagles 13 Aug 21 12.23pm
The irony of the situation here is that whilst all the exaggerated allegations by the progressive ultra-liberals about Trump being a sexist, racist, fascist have assisted Biden into office. This has now resulted in 40million Afghans having their burgeoning democracy taken away from them by a group of extreme religious fanatics who are sexist, racist, fascists who will now repress them for decades. Whilst my assumption his conjecture - I cannot imagine Trump pulling troops out of the country if there was a risk of the Afghan Government collapsing. His ego wouldn't allow it. Biden has blood on his hands, including all those soldiers who have now given their life for no reason. Our society is likely likely to be at a much greater risk because of this.
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jeeagles

13 Aug 21 12.23pm

The irony of the situation here is that whilst all the exaggerated allegations by the progressive ultra-liberals about Trump being a sexist, racist, fascist have assisted Biden into office. This has now resulted in 40million Afghans having their burgeoning democracy taken away from them by a group of extreme religious fanatics who are sexist, racist, fascists who will now repress them for decades.

Whilst my assumption his conjecture - I cannot imagine Trump pulling troops out of the country if there was a risk of the Afghan Government collapsing. His ego wouldn't allow it.

Biden has blood on his hands, including all those soldiers who have now given their life for no reason. Our society is likely likely to be at a much greater risk because of this.

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steeleye20 Croydon 13 Aug 21 1.18pm
Originally posted by jeeagles The irony of the situation here is that whilst all the exaggerated allegations by the progressive ultra-liberals about Trump being a sexist, racist, fascist have assisted Biden into office. This has now resulted in 40million Afghans having their burgeoning democracy taken away from them by a group of extreme religious fanatics who are sexist, racist, fascists who will now repress them for decades. Whilst my assumption his conjecture - I cannot imagine Trump pulling troops out of the country if there was a risk of the Afghan Government collapsing. His ego wouldn't allow it. Biden has blood on his hands, including all those soldiers who have now given their life for no reason. Our society is likely likely to be at a much greater risk because of this. Granted but Trump has been thoroughly duped just as much here. Uncle Sam and his dollar did for them and exposed their moral bankruptcy. They would even believe that a terror organisation funded by crime and opium could be a responsible government. If you made it attractive enough to them.
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steeleye20

Croydon 13 Aug 21 1.18pm

Originally posted by jeeagles

Whilst my assumption his conjecture - I cannot imagine Trump pulling troops out of the country if there was a risk of the Afghan Government collapsing. His ego wouldn't allow it.

Biden has blood on his hands, including all those soldiers who have now given their life for no reason. Our society is likely likely to be at a much greater risk because of this.

Granted but Trump has been thoroughly duped just as much here.

Uncle Sam and his dollar did for them and exposed their moral bankruptcy.

They would even believe that a terror organisation funded by crime and opium could be a responsible government.

If you made it attractive enough to them.

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croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 13 Aug 21 2.28pm
Originally posted by jeeagles The irony of the situation here is that whilst all the exaggerated allegations by the progressive ultra-liberals about Trump being a sexist, racist, fascist have assisted Biden into office. This has now resulted in 40million Afghans having their burgeoning democracy taken away from them by a group of extreme religious fanatics who are sexist, racist, fascists who will now repress them for decades. Whilst my assumption his conjecture - I cannot imagine Trump pulling troops out of the country if there was a risk of the Afghan Government collapsing. His ego wouldn't allow it. Biden has blood on his hands, including all those soldiers who have now given their life for no reason. Our society is likely likely to be at a much greater risk because of this. He did pull out of Syria and left the pkk, who had defeated isis in the theatre, the real heroes, to face the might of the Turkish army, after all they had done for us-and trump!And the majority of Americans don"t want any more U.S soldiers dying abroad-ironically most vocal in the deep south, Trumps states- go to bama and they are mad to get out of Afghanistan.
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croydon proud

Any european country i fancy! 13 Aug 21 2.28pm

Originally posted by jeeagles

Whilst my assumption his conjecture - I cannot imagine Trump pulling troops out of the country if there was a risk of the Afghan Government collapsing. His ego wouldn't allow it.

Biden has blood on his hands, including all those soldiers who have now given their life for no reason. Our society is likely likely to be at a much greater risk because of this.

He did pull out of Syria and left the pkk, who had defeated isis in the theatre, the real heroes, to face the might of the Turkish army, after all they had done for us-and trump!And the majority of Americans don"t want any more U.S soldiers dying abroad-ironically most vocal in the deep south, Trumps states- go to bama and they are mad to get out of Afghanistan.

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BlueJay UK 13 Aug 21 2.35pm
Originally posted by georgenorman Is this the same Taliban that we treated as heroes when they were fighting the Russians? The very same. We know (or care) so little about the the culture and politics of these countries that government can paint whatever face on any conflict they're gearing up to, and enough of the public typically buy into it to get it over the line. Though nowadays I do sense a war fatigue in that people realise that none of these conflicts or occupations ever really lead anywhere that benefits us.
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BlueJay

UK 13 Aug 21 2.35pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

Is this the same Taliban that we treated as heroes when they were fighting the Russians?

The very same. We know (or care) so little about the the culture and politics of these countries that government can paint whatever face on any conflict they're gearing up to, and enough of the public typically buy into it to get it over the line.

Though nowadays I do sense a war fatigue in that people realise that none of these conflicts or occupations ever really lead anywhere that benefits us.

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Stirlingsays 13 Aug 21 2.57pm
Originally posted by Matov The ideal of wiping the Taleban from the face of the earth was a good one then and a good one now. But those lives have been wasted if, some 20 years later, the Taleban are not only back in power but probably stronger for it. Beat the Russians and now the almighty West. Under Trump, Islamic fundamentalism suffered a massive blow when IS were wiped out. Within less than a year of Biden stealing the election, Islamic fundamentalism has received its biggest boost ever. And it is huge. IS were only ever, a best, a bunch of fanatics who crumbled under air-attacks and the Syrian Army. It's more than conceivable that within the next 5 years the Taleban will be offered a seat at the UN. China are already saying that will recognize its legitimate right to govern. Every Islamic fundamentalist in the world will be able to look at Afghanistan and take great strength from it. And they will be right to do so. That is the point. Plus creating a massive stream of refugees, all of whom have a perfectly legitimate reason to flee. And I hope they make it here in their hundreds of thousands. The UK deserves to pay a price for its part in this f*** up. Yep depressing isn't it. I wouldn't be surprised if what most of what you say there ends up becoming true....essentially Neo liberalism failed. I even think that today modern politicians understand that and are moving towards the more authoritarian western form of the Chinese social credit system (which is a form of Chinese facism) as a way of controlling the highly fragmented societies that liberalism has stupidly created both on class and tribal lines. Back after 9/11 It's neo con elites believed that because neo liberalism killed religion in the west and turned its population of genetic Europeans into consumerist zombies, who are principally only interested in materialism and hedonistic self interested thinking that the same process can be globally transported into poor religious and culturally very different countries. That's what liberal idealism does....a fundamental lack of understanding of human nature and environment that ends up killing people. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Aug 21 2.57pm

Originally posted by Matov

Under Trump, Islamic fundamentalism suffered a massive blow when IS were wiped out. Within less than a year of Biden stealing the election, Islamic fundamentalism has received its biggest boost ever.

Yep depressing isn't it.

I wouldn't be surprised if what most of what you say there ends up becoming true....essentially Neo liberalism failed.

I even think that today modern politicians understand that and are moving towards the more authoritarian western form of the Chinese social credit system (which is a form of Chinese facism) as a way of controlling the highly fragmented societies that liberalism has stupidly created both on class and tribal lines.

Back after 9/11 It's neo con elites believed that because neo liberalism killed religion in the west and turned its population of genetic Europeans into consumerist zombies, who are principally only interested in materialism and hedonistic self interested thinking that the same process can be globally transported into poor religious and culturally very different countries.

That's what liberal idealism does....a fundamental lack of understanding of human nature and environment that ends up killing people.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 13 Aug 21 3.16pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Granted but Trump has been thoroughly duped just as much here. Uncle Sam and his dollar did for them and exposed their moral bankruptcy. They would even believe that a terror organisation funded by crime and opium could be a responsible government. If you made it attractive enough to them. I think whether you agreed with him or not the Trump that went into office was a very different one to the Trump that left it. Whoever enters that position is quickly caged by the system which has far more collective power than a president. Trump started by saying at his inauguration that he would be 'carnage' to the system...Bannon's words....but instead a year in he fired Bannon and look what happened. He ended up trying to please the very system that hated him.....completely lost his balls. That said, Trump, even though he was a pathological liar (similar to his critics) was far more realistic about what was possible both in foreign policy and the economy. The orange man was a far better president that his moronic opposition that for sure. The Democrats are a complete disaster zone on everything they touch. Aside from what I regard as abuse from everything they believe in regarding gender and sexuality.....That child sniffing Biden made commitments on taking office like he would solve Covid and that the economy would improve. Well, over a year in and Inflation is now at 5.4 percent, his economic policies are adding massively to the debt and unemployment is at huge levels. Biden canceled the US pipeful in his first week, which would have given them energy independence and is now begging foreign oil suppliers to raise production.....Biden said he had a plan over covid but that has been about as effective as his son's laptop security. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2021 3.18pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Aug 21 3.16pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Granted but Trump has been thoroughly duped just as much here.

Uncle Sam and his dollar did for them and exposed their moral bankruptcy.

They would even believe that a terror organisation funded by crime and opium could be a responsible government.

If you made it attractive enough to them.

I think whether you agreed with him or not the Trump that went into office was a very different one to the Trump that left it.

Whoever enters that position is quickly caged by the system which has far more collective power than a president.

Trump started by saying at his inauguration that he would be 'carnage' to the system...Bannon's words....but instead a year in he fired Bannon and look what happened.

He ended up trying to please the very system that hated him.....completely lost his balls.

That said, Trump, even though he was a pathological liar (similar to his critics) was far more realistic about what was possible both in foreign policy and the economy. The orange man was a far better president that his moronic opposition that for sure.

The Democrats are a complete disaster zone on everything they touch. Aside from what I regard as abuse from everything they believe in regarding gender and sexuality.....That child sniffing Biden made commitments on taking office like he would solve Covid and that the economy would improve.

Well, over a year in and Inflation is now at 5.4 percent, his economic policies are adding massively to the debt and unemployment is at huge levels. Biden canceled the US pipeful in his first week, which would have given them energy independence and is now begging foreign oil suppliers to raise production.....Biden said he had a plan over covid but that has been about as effective as his son's laptop security.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Aug 2021 3.18pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steeleye20 Croydon 13 Aug 21 6.38pm
Wondering what the political price for Biden will be. The prospect of increased terrorism in the USA, he must be responsible if it happens. What an a*****le he has turned out to be.
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steeleye20

Croydon 13 Aug 21 6.38pm

Wondering what the political price for Biden will be.

The prospect of increased terrorism in the USA, he must be responsible if it happens.

What an a*****le he has turned out to be.

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Stirlingsays 13 Aug 21 6.49pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Wondering what the political price for Biden will be. The prospect of increased terrorism in the USA, he must be responsible if it happens. What an a*****le he has turned out to be. I think the spilt in the US has been coming for a long time. Personally I don't blame Biden for that....he's just a symptom of that like Trump was. The distance between left and right worldviews are effectively a chasm and it's been growing further apart for decades. I've been saying for some time that the best outcome for America is peaceful separation into two. Without it, I'm fairly certain there will be blood and separation anyway.....or forced union. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Aug 21 6.49pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Wondering what the political price for Biden will be.

The prospect of increased terrorism in the USA, he must be responsible if it happens.

What an a*****le he has turned out to be.

I think the spilt in the US has been coming for a long time. Personally I don't blame Biden for that....he's just a symptom of that like Trump was. The distance between left and right worldviews are effectively a chasm and it's been growing further apart for decades.

I've been saying for some time that the best outcome for America is peaceful separation into two.

Without it, I'm fairly certain there will be blood and separation anyway.....or forced union.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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