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Henry of Peckham Eton Mess 12 Mar 22 3.50pm | |
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Originally posted by chris123
Do you believe Abramovich should have been sanctioned? I don't think AB should ever have been allowed to plough millions into Chelsea in the first place ... he can be sanctioned for all the perceived well intended reasons but putting Chelski out of business is not going to help Ukraine. Oh dear, I can't buy a Chelski shirt because the club shop is not allowed to sell them! (duh)
Denial is not just a river in Egypt |
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Spiderman Horsham 12 Mar 22 4.07pm | |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
He was kicked out four years ago when his visa expired and we refused to renew it. He then became an Israeli citizen but didn't return to the UK until a few months ago He is now subject to a travel ban, so his Israeli and Portuguese passports won’t get him in
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chris123 hove actually 12 Mar 22 4.09pm | |
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Originally posted by Henry of Peckham
I don't think AB should ever have been allowed to plough millions into Chelsea in the first place ... he can be sanctioned for all the perceived well intended reasons but putting Chelski out of business is not going to help Ukraine. Oh dear, I can't buy a Chelski shirt because the club shop is not allowed to sell them! (duh) That's not how sanctions work though.
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sydtheeagle England 12 Mar 22 4.17pm | |
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Originally posted by Henry of Peckham
Chelsea have been very successful because of all the money AB has pumped into them ... FACT. I just don't see how hitting them with Government sanctions and potentially destroying the football club helps Ukraine? Question wasn't directed at me, but I'll try to answer. After the demise of the Soviet Union (initially under Yeltsin) virtually all the Russian state assets (mainly natural resources - oil, gas, infrastructure like telecoms, banking, etc.) were plundered by what became the first generation of oligarchs. "Plundered" as in given away (or sold off, as you prefer) by the state to a coterie of friendly influencers in exchange for favour. After Putin took over, he demanded fealty from the oligarchs if they wanted to maintain their status/wealth. Some opposed him and were summarily dealt with (nb: Salisbury) or stripped of their wealth and exiled/imprisoned. Others continued to blow him, in order to maintain their wealth (eg: Abramovich). So the present generation of oligarchs are essentially Putin's puppets. There are two salient facts for the sanctions: 1. That wealth actually belongs to the Russian people, from whom it was stolen and to whom it should be returned (would you be happy if Boris gave all the right to North Sea Oil to Mike Ashley and said "cash in and enrich yourself, bro"?), and 2. The present generation of oligarchs jumps when Putin says jump. It's ludicrous to presume they're not propping up his regime financially, and most likely directly or indirectly funding his wars. Thus, by stripping the oligarchs of their assets, money which to all intents and purposes is directly at Putin's disposal, his ability to prosecute the war against Ukraine is greatly diminished. The fact that Chelsea is a football club and therefore higher profile than some of the other frozen assets is neither here nor there. Chelsea is simply a business caught in the crossfire of a just and sensible sanctioning policy. If the warmaker has his ability to buy weapons and therefore to continue the war curtailed, and if the result of his war-making is the destruction of his own country's economy as a result of the sanctions then it stands to reason that sooner or later the war will end because his own people, and hopefully the oligarchs themselves, will turn against him. All of this very much helps Ukraine. Right now, the sanctions are probably the best chance of peace they've got. Edited by sydtheeagle (12 Mar 2022 4.19pm)
Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God. |
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Spiderman Horsham 12 Mar 22 4.33pm | |
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Originally posted by Henry of Peckham
What is YOUR problem? Chelsea have been very successful because of all the money AB has pumped into them ... FACT. I just don't see how hitting them with Government sanctions and potentially destroying the football club helps Ukraine? Maybe you have a one liner to answer that ... or should I buy a Chelsea shirt (duh!). IMO the reasoning behind these sanctions worldwide ( not just the UK) is to, hopefully, get these mega Rich oligarchs ( crooks) to put pressure on Putin. I may be totally wrong. Edited by Spiderman (12 Mar 2022 4.34pm)
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Henry of Peckham Eton Mess 12 Mar 22 4.45pm | |
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Originally posted by sydtheeagle
Question wasn't directed at me, but I'll try to answer. After the demise of the Soviet Union (initially under Yeltsin) virtually all the Russian state assets (mainly natural resources - oil, gas, infrastructure like telecoms, banking, etc.) were plundered by what became the first generation of oligarchs. "Plundered" as in given away (or sold off, as you prefer) by the state to a coterie of friendly influencers in exchange for favour. After Putin took over, he demanded fealty from the oligarchs if they wanted to maintain their status/wealth. Some opposed him and were summarily dealt with (nb: Salisbury) or stripped of their wealth and exiled/imprisoned. Others continued to blow him, in order to maintain their wealth (eg: Abramovich). So the present generation of oligarchs are essentially Putin's puppets. There are two salient facts for the sanctions: 1. That wealth actually belongs to the Russian people, from whom it was stolen and to whom it should be returned (would you be happy if Boris gave all the right to North Sea Oil to Mike Ashley and said "cash in and enrich yourself, bro"?), and 2. The present generation of oligarchs jumps when Putin says jump. It's ludicrous to presume they're not propping up his regime financially, and most likely directly or indirectly funding his wars. Thus, by stripping the oligarchs of their assets, money which to all intents and purposes is directly at Putin's disposal, his ability to prosecute the war against Ukraine is greatly diminished. The fact that Chelsea is a football club and therefore higher profile than some of the other frozen assets is neither here nor there. Chelsea is simply a business caught in the crossfire of a just and sensible sanctioning policy. If the warmaker has his ability to buy weapons and therefore to continue the war curtailed, and if the result of his war-making is the destruction of his own country's economy as a result of the sanctions then it stands to reason that sooner or later the war will end because his own people, and hopefully the oligarchs themselves, will turn against him. All of this very much helps Ukraine. Right now, the sanctions are probably the best chance of peace they've got. Edited by sydtheeagle (12 Mar 2022 4.19pm) Thank you for that lucid explanation. However, will the oligarchs turn against Putin? ... of course not they have too much to lose and will Chelski go out of business? ... I very much doubt it as they are part of a competitive Premier League dripping with money because of teams like them. Putin currently sits on top of a very strong power base but as we've seen before, the ultimate power lies with the Russian people. They will have to ignore the bulls*** they are fed and overcome the bullying by his thugs. I hope it's sooner rather than later but it clearly is the longterm solution.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt |
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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 12 Mar 22 4.58pm | |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
IMO the reasoning behind these sanctions worldwide ( not just the UK) is to, hopefully, get these mega Rich oligarchs ( crooks) to put pressure on Putin. I may be totally wrong. Edited by Spiderman (12 Mar 2022 4.34pm) I wouldn't considered that a rant. I think it's a decent articulation of your viewpoint which is very similarly aligned to mine. I recognise my endorsement here may be harmful to the reputation of your post and strength of the stance however so apologise in advance for any negative repercussions!
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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Midlands Eagle 12 Mar 22 5.54pm | |
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Originally posted by Henry of Peckham
Putin currently sits on top of a very strong power base but as we've seen before, the ultimate power lies with the Russian people. They will have to ignore the bulls*** they are fed and overcome the bullying by his thugs. I hope it's sooner rather than later but it clearly is the longterm solution. Easier said than done as PooTin now controls all of the media and it seems that most Russians believe that they are seeing and hearing the truth on the state controlled media
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Badger11 Beckenham 12 Mar 22 6.02pm | |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
IMO the reasoning behind these sanctions worldwide ( not just the UK) is to, hopefully, get these mega Rich oligarchs ( crooks) to put pressure on Putin. I may be totally wrong. Edited by Spiderman (12 Mar 2022 4.34pm) That's how i see it, 1m people marched against the Iraq war and Blair just ignored them. There are several thousand war protestors in Moscow, good luck to them but they wont make a difference until every city is ground to a halt. What is more likely is the money men tell Putin to fix it or they will get the army to oust him.
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Rudi Hedman Caterham 12 Mar 22 8.18pm | |
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Originally posted by Henry of Peckham
I don't think AB should ever have been allowed to plough millions into Chelsea in the first place ... he can be sanctioned for all the perceived well intended reasons but putting Chelski out of business is not going to help Ukraine. Oh dear, I can't buy a Chelski shirt because the club shop is not allowed to sell them! (duh) AB should ever have been allowed to plough millions into Chelsea in the first place I agree with. Doing it now is no bad thing for whatever reason. Chelsea are not going to be put out of business so need to get upset. They just won’t be buying titles if the new owner will not bankroll hundreds of millions of pounds in losses every year, and that’s with FFP being broken. Something Man City manage to cheat and I’m sure Newcastle will to keep the premier league bosses rich.
COYP |
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sydtheeagle England 12 Mar 22 8.47pm | |
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Originally posted by Henry of Peckham
However, will the oligarchs turn against Putin? ... of course not they have too much to lose and will Chelski go out of business? ... I very much doubt it On the second point, you are right; Chelsea will not go out of business (and it is not the intention of the sanctions that they should go out of business). They will operate under restrictive conditions for a few months, then be sold to a new owner and business as usual (more or less) will resume. On the first point, while none of us knows whether the oligarchs will turn against Putin, you are over-confident in suggesting there is no chance of that happening. If it becomes clear that Putin is running out of road (and there are various different ways it's possible we'll arrive at that juncture), they will turn against him rapidly. We're not at that point yet, but it's not impossible we'll get there. The oligarchs are, first and foremost, loyal to their money. If Putin is weakened enough, their loyalty to their money will triumph over their loyalty to him. Presently, though, as I said we're not at that point. One of the purposes of the sanctions is to get us there.
Sydenham by birth. Selhurst by the Grace of God. |
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steeleye20 Croydon 12 Mar 22 8.53pm | |
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Sanctions like this are just ridiculous, do nothing for the people of Ukraine, and could not possibly have any affect on Russia.
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