Ref: Palace v Everton

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Goldfiinger Just down the road 19 Nov 17 9.27pm
Originally posted by Willo You seriously suggesting that a player can be booked for "Unsporting beahaviour" for his first foul based on the fact that this followed a series of fouls spread across the team ? Edited by Willo (19 Nov 2017 9.24pm) I'm not suggesting anything I'm quoting David Elleray said: Quote Referees have always been told to look out for a team tactic where different players foul the same opponent. The advice is that the captain is warned then the next player can be cautioned not for persistent misconduct but for unsporting behaviour. Its frankly absurd to think the referee hasn't any power to stop a team from persitant fouling. If he wanted he could use unsporting behavior. The more you defend 26 fouls not being able to be managed by the referee the more you unmask your true colours. Edited by Goldfiinger (19 Nov 2017 9.30pm)
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Goldfiinger

Just down the road 19 Nov 17 9.27pm

Originally posted by Willo

You seriously suggesting that a player can be booked for "Unsporting beahaviour" for his first foul based on the fact that this followed a series of fouls spread across the team ?

Edited by Willo (19 Nov 2017 9.24pm)

I'm not suggesting anything I'm quoting David Elleray said:

Quote Referees have always been told to look out for a team tactic where different players foul the same opponent.

The advice is that the captain is warned then the next player can be cautioned not for persistent misconduct but for unsporting behaviour.

Its frankly absurd to think the referee hasn't any power to stop a team from persitant fouling. If he wanted he could use unsporting behavior.

The more you defend 26 fouls not being able to be managed by the referee the more you unmask your true colours.

Edited by Goldfiinger (19 Nov 2017 9.30pm)

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 19 Nov 17 9.27pm
Originally posted by Goldfiinger You're only making yourself look like a mug. Those who don't knows the 'Laws' but debate on here from supposed positions of authority could be said to fit this description.
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 19 Nov 17 9.27pm

Originally posted by Goldfiinger

You're only making yourself look like a mug.

Those who don't knows the 'Laws' but debate on here from supposed positions of authority could be said to fit this description.

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chateauferret 19 Nov 17 9.28pm
Originally posted by Willo From the FA website : A player is cautioned if guilty of: delaying the restart of play dissent by word or action entering, re-entering or deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission failing to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a corner kick, free kick or throw-in persistent offences (no specific number or pattern of offences constitutes “persistent”) unsporting behaviour Kindly note this refers to "A player" and NOT the team. Complete and utter horses***. Since you can't be bothered to look up the link I posted to David Elleray's comment, I'll paste it in here for you. "Referees have always been told to look out for a team tactic where different players foul the same opponent. "The advice is that the captain is warned then the next player can be cautioned not for persistent misconduct but for unsporting behaviour." The list of examples of unsporting behaviour in Law 12 is not exhaustive. Elleray makes clear that referees have always been advised to treat the behaviour we're discussing as unsporting behaviour deserving of a yellow card. ============ The Ferret ============
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chateauferret

19 Nov 17 9.28pm

Originally posted by Willo

From the FA website :

A player is cautioned if guilty of:

delaying the restart of play
dissent by word or action
entering, re-entering or deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission
failing to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a corner kick, free kick or throw-in
persistent offences (no specific number or pattern of offences constitutes “persistent”)
unsporting behaviour

Kindly note this refers to "A player" and NOT the team.

Complete and utter horses***.

Since you can't be bothered to look up the link I posted to David Elleray's comment, I'll paste it in here for you.

"Referees have always been told to look out for a team tactic where different players foul the same opponent.

"The advice is that the captain is warned then the next player can be cautioned not for persistent misconduct but for unsporting behaviour."

The list of examples of unsporting behaviour in Law 12 is not exhaustive. Elleray makes clear that referees have always been advised to treat the behaviour we're discussing as unsporting behaviour deserving of a yellow card.

============
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chateauferret 19 Nov 17 9.30pm
Originally posted by Willo Those who don't knows the 'Laws' but debate on here from supposed positions of authority could be said to fit this description. Yes, you do indeed. The authority I quoted was the technical director of the IFAB which is the body that defines the Laws. If you've got a position of authority that comes above that I'd be very surprised. Edited by chateauferret (19 Nov 2017 9.38pm) ============ The Ferret ============
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chateauferret

19 Nov 17 9.30pm

Originally posted by Willo

Those who don't knows the 'Laws' but debate on here from supposed positions of authority could be said to fit this description.

Yes, you do indeed.

The authority I quoted was the technical director of the IFAB which is the body that defines the Laws. If you've got a position of authority that comes above that I'd be very surprised.

Edited by chateauferret (19 Nov 2017 9.38pm)

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Goldfiinger Just down the road 19 Nov 17 9.32pm
Originally posted by Willo Those who don't knows the 'Laws' but debate on here from supposed positions of authority could be said to fit this description. Yes that very much sounds like you. As you assure us of your 'authority' but don't know of any laws which the referee could have used to protect our team from an average of a foul every 3 minutes.
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Goldfiinger

Just down the road 19 Nov 17 9.32pm

Originally posted by Willo

Those who don't knows the 'Laws' but debate on here from supposed positions of authority could be said to fit this description.

Yes that very much sounds like you. As you assure us of your 'authority' but don't know of any laws which the referee could have used to protect our team from an average of a foul every 3 minutes.

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 19 Nov 17 9.36pm
Originally posted by chateauferret Complete and utter horses***. Since you can't be bothered to look up the link I posted to David Elleray's comment, I'll paste it in here for you. "Referees have always been told to look out for a team tactic where different players foul the same opponent. "The advice is that the captain is warned then the next player can be cautioned not for persistent misconduct but for unsporting behaviour." The list of examples of unsporting behaviour in Law 12 is not exhaustive. Elleray makes clear that referees have always been advised to treat the behaviour we're discussing as unsporting behaviour deserving of a yellow card. There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour, e.g. if a player: • commits in a reckless manner one of the seven offences that incur a direct free kick • commits a foul for the tactical purpose of interfering with or breaking up a promising attack • holds an opponent for the tactical purpose of pulling the opponent away from the ball or preventing the opponent from getting to the ball • handles the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession or developing an attack (other than the goalkeeper within his own penalty area) • handles the ball in an attempt to score a goal (irrespective of whether or not the attempt is successful). • attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation) • changes places with the goalkeeper during play or without the referee’s permission • acts in a manner which shows a lack of respect for the game • plays the ball when he is walking off the fi eld of play after being granted permission to leave the fi eld of play • verbally distracts an opponent during play or at a restart • makes unauthorised marks on the field of play • uses a deliberate trick while the ball is in play to pass the ball to his own goalkeeper with his head, chest, knee, etc. in order to circumvent the Law, irrespective of whether the goalkeeper touches the ball with his hands or not. The offence is committed by the player in attempting to circumvent both the letter and the spirit of Law 12 and play is restarted with an indirect free kick • uses a deliberate trick to pass the ball to his own goalkeeper to circumvent the Law while he is taking a free kick (after the player is cautioned, the free kick must be retaken) I cannot recall any incident whereby a player was cautioned for "Unsporting behaviour" based on a topping-up process at team level. Edited by Willo (19 Nov 2017 10.40pm)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 19 Nov 17 9.36pm

Originally posted by chateauferret

Complete and utter horses***.

Since you can't be bothered to look up the link I posted to David Elleray's comment, I'll paste it in here for you.

"Referees have always been told to look out for a team tactic where different players foul the same opponent.

"The advice is that the captain is warned then the next player can be cautioned not for persistent misconduct but for unsporting behaviour."

There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for
unsporting behaviour, e.g. if a player:
• commits in a reckless manner one of the seven offences that incur a direct
free kick
• commits a foul for the tactical purpose of interfering with or breaking up a
promising attack
• holds an opponent for the tactical purpose of pulling the opponent away
from the ball or preventing the opponent from getting to the ball
• handles the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession or developing
an attack (other than the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
• handles the ball in an attempt to score a goal (irrespective of whether or
not the attempt is successful).
• attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have
been fouled (simulation)
• changes places with the goalkeeper during play or without the referee’s
permission
• acts in a manner which shows a lack of respect for the game
• plays the ball when he is walking off the fi eld of play after being granted
permission to leave the fi eld of play
• verbally distracts an opponent during play or at a restart
• makes unauthorised marks on the field of play
• uses a deliberate trick while the ball is in play to pass the ball to his own
goalkeeper with his head, chest, knee, etc. in order to circumvent the Law,
irrespective of whether the goalkeeper touches the ball with his hands or
not. The offence is committed by the player in attempting to circumvent
both the letter and the spirit of Law 12 and play is restarted with an indirect
free kick
• uses a deliberate trick to pass the ball to his own goalkeeper to circumvent
the Law while he is taking a free kick (after the player is cautioned, the free
kick must be retaken)

I cannot recall any incident whereby a player was cautioned for "Unsporting behaviour" based on a topping-up process at team level.

Edited by Willo (19 Nov 2017 10.40pm)

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the silurian The garden of England.(not really) 19 Nov 17 9.36pm
Originally posted by Willo I have responded to a number of the points on here and set the record straight about the Law relating to "Persistent infringement". Seemingly some believe that after a set number of fouls either the whole team should be booked or the player who commits the next foul should be booked even if this was his first foul.Ridiculous. I know i said Im out but.... so you are now saying that a player cant be booked for his first foul?? Hogwash and balderdash!!
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the silurian

The garden of England.(not really) 19 Nov 17 9.36pm

Originally posted by Willo

I have responded to a number of the points on here and set the record straight about the Law relating to "Persistent infringement".

Seemingly some believe that after a set number of fouls either the whole team should be booked or the player who commits the next foul should be booked even if this was his first foul.Ridiculous.

I know i said Im out but....

so you are now saying that a player cant be booked for his first foul??

Hogwash and balderdash!!

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 19 Nov 17 9.39pm
Originally posted by Goldfiinger Yes that very much sounds like you. As you assure us of your 'authority' but don't know of any laws which the referee could have used to protect our team from an average of a foul every 3 minutes. I don't see myself as an all-important person on here with the label of 'Panjandrum'. All I said was I can speak from a POSITION of authority regards refereeing for the reasons which I stated. I really don't have such a high opinion of myself that I believe I should be nicknamed "Everest".
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 19 Nov 17 9.39pm

Originally posted by Goldfiinger

Yes that very much sounds like you. As you assure us of your 'authority' but don't know of any laws which the referee could have used to protect our team from an average of a foul every 3 minutes.

I don't see myself as an all-important person on here with the label of 'Panjandrum'.

All I said was I can speak from a POSITION of authority regards refereeing for the reasons which I stated.

I really don't have such a high opinion of myself that I believe I should be nicknamed "Everest".

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 19 Nov 17 9.42pm
Originally posted by the silurian I know i said Im out but.... so you are now saying that a player cant be booked for his first foul?? Hogwash and balderdash!! NOT advocated this at all. All I said was that a player is not booked for "Persistent infringement" for his/her first foul not worthy of a booking on the basis of "Persistent infringements" across the team. One can get into the realms of "Unsporting Behaviour" based on multiple fouls spread across the team targetting a player whereby the referee issues a verbal warning etc etc but such a scenario is very rare.I have never seen an incident whereby a player was booked for "Unsporting behavour" for his first foul following a series of fouls by his team so it's not something that is highlighted or discussed, accordingly it was not in the forefront of my mind. I'm not going to get into further debate on this as I have contributed enough on this thread and it is slowly disintegrating into a WILLO thread. Anyway, I think I have contributed enough on this thread and made my views perfectly clear so I believe it is high-time that I concentrated on other topics on HOL.No more to add to this thread. Edited by Willo (20 Nov 2017 12.09am)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 19 Nov 17 9.42pm

Originally posted by the silurian

I know i said Im out but....

so you are now saying that a player cant be booked for his first foul??

Hogwash and balderdash!!

NOT advocated this at all.

All I said was that a player is not booked for "Persistent infringement" for his/her first foul not worthy of a booking on the basis of "Persistent infringements" across the team.

One can get into the realms of "Unsporting Behaviour" based on multiple fouls spread across the team targetting a player whereby the referee issues a verbal warning etc etc but such a scenario is very rare.I have never seen an incident whereby a player was booked for "Unsporting behavour" for his first foul following a series of fouls by his team so it's not something that is highlighted or discussed, accordingly it was not in the forefront of my mind. I'm not going to get into further debate on this as I have contributed enough on this thread and it is slowly disintegrating into a WILLO thread.

Anyway, I think I have contributed enough on this thread and made my views perfectly clear so I believe it is high-time that I concentrated on other topics on HOL.No more to add to this thread.

Edited by Willo (20 Nov 2017 12.09am)

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Goldfiinger Just down the road 19 Nov 17 9.46pm
Originally posted by Willo I don't see myself as an all-important person on here with the label of 'Panjandrum'. All I said was I can speak from a POSITION of authority regards refereeing for the reasons which I stated. I really don't have such a high opinion of myself that I believe I should be nicknamed "Everest". Willo the problem everyone has is all you try to do is find the reasons why the referee didn't give something, rather than use your knowledge to explain why he could have. We all understand he didn't have to book anyone, but surely there's rules or laws in place to stop consistent team fouling. SURELY...? And it seems would fall under unsporting behavior. Its just unfortunate that you'd rather argue till the cows come home about what you know about why he didnt help us, rather than look at various options in how he could have. And that my friend is why you get everyones backs up.
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Goldfiinger

Just down the road 19 Nov 17 9.46pm

Originally posted by Willo

I don't see myself as an all-important person on here with the label of 'Panjandrum'.

All I said was I can speak from a POSITION of authority regards refereeing for the reasons which I stated.

I really don't have such a high opinion of myself that I believe I should be nicknamed "Everest".

Willo the problem everyone has is all you try to do is find the reasons why the referee didn't give something, rather than use your knowledge to explain why he could have.

We all understand he didn't have to book anyone, but surely there's rules or laws in place to stop consistent team fouling.

SURELY...?

And it seems would fall under unsporting behavior.

Its just unfortunate that you'd rather argue till the cows come home about what you know about why he didnt help us, rather than look at various options in how he could have.

And that my friend is why you get everyones backs up.

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chateauferret 19 Nov 17 9.49pm
Originally posted by Willo There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour, e.g. if a player: • commits in a reckless manner one of the seven offences that incur a direct free kick • commits a foul for the tactical purpose of interfering with or breaking up a promising attack • holds an opponent for the tactical purpose of pulling the opponent away from the ball or preventing the opponent from getting to the ball • handles the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession or developing an attack (other than the goalkeeper within his own penalty area) • handles the ball in an attempt to score a goal (irrespective of whether or not the attempt is successful). • attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation) • changes places with the goalkeeper during play or without the referee’s permission • acts in a manner which shows a lack of respect for the game • plays the ball when he is walking off the fi eld of play after being granted permission to leave the fi eld of play • verbally distracts an opponent during play or at a restart • makes unauthorised marks on the field of play • uses a deliberate trick while the ball is in play to pass the ball to his own goalkeeper with his head, chest, knee, etc. in order to circumvent the Law, irrespective of whether the goalkeeper touches the ball with his hands or not. The offence is committed by the player in attempting to circumvent both the letter and the spirit of Law 12 and play is restarted with an indirect free kick • uses a deliberate trick to pass the ball to his own goalkeeper to circumvent the Law while he is taking a free kick (after the player is cautioned, the free kick must be retaken) I cannot recall any incident whereby a player is cautioned for "Unsporting behaviour" based on a topping-up process at team level. Since, again, you can't be bothered to follow the link I posted there's a reference in there to a match involving Chelsea and Manchester United in which this reading of the law was applied. As well as a number of real referees (not just armchair wannabes like you) who've actually applied it in exactly this way. Which is consistent with the reading of that list as being non-exhaustive (it says "including" at the top, although you've actually quoted the FIFA version which says "e.g." at the top. Both leave scope for anything deemed unsporting behaviour to result in a card). ============ The Ferret ============
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chateauferret

19 Nov 17 9.49pm

Originally posted by Willo

I cannot recall any incident whereby a player is cautioned for "Unsporting behaviour" based on a topping-up process at team level.

Since, again, you can't be bothered to follow the link I posted there's a reference in there to a match involving Chelsea and Manchester United in which this reading of the law was applied.

As well as a number of *real* referees (not just armchair wannabes like you) who've actually applied it in exactly this way.

Which is consistent with the reading of that list as being non-exhaustive (it says "including" at the top, although you've actually quoted the FIFA version which says "e.g." at the top. Both leave scope for anything deemed unsporting behaviour to result in a card).

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============

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peterg Anerley 20 Nov 17 3.44pm
Is Willo looking for a new hero now that Mark Cntenfck has disappeared to the corrupt new world of Saudi? Could Anthony Taylor be the one? The right place at the right time
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peterg

Anerley 20 Nov 17 3.44pm

Is Willo looking for a new hero now that Mark C*ntenf*ck has disappeared to the corrupt new world of Saudi?
Could Anthony Taylor be the one?

The right place at the right time

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