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P-K4 10 Oct 15 12.28pm
Quote Kermit8 at 10 Oct 2015 8.43am An eyewitness 1981 account from someone living right in the middle of it: "By now the social and economic background to the Brixton riots will be familiar to most people. A housing waiting list, in the borough in which Brixton is situated, of 18,000; a third of the housing stock sub-standard; high unemployment with about 2 out of 3 of the unemployed being black; a high robbery rate (in fact the highest in London, it being twice the nearest figure); next to no social amenities. This is all very true. The area around the Railton Road (Frontline/Mayall Road triangle) is inhabited by mainly black council tenants and white squatters (leftists/anarchists/marginals). Empty houses are also used by local blacks as drinking and gambling clubs, dope centres and venues for all-night 'Blues' parties with sound systems pumping out non-stop reggae. Down the Frontline a black crafts centre has recently started in one empty building and further down a former black bookshop is now a squatted anarchist bookshop. People down here tend to live on the left-overs of capitalist society. For years, the Triangle has been on the drawing board for demolition but only in the last two has any attempt been made to carry this out. But the council keep running out of money so it has been coming down piecemeal, making a rough area look even rougher. However, the maze of streets west of the Frontline look brighter as they have increasingly come under the occupation of white, liberal professionals and self-made respectable blacks. Down the Frontline there are two distinct cultures - the black and the white - and it is the black culture which predominates and on the fringes of which the young whites participate. Dope and Reggae. The blacks have their own language - Patois - and this gives them an independent cultural identity that is not easily co-opted or diluted. Perhaps the most relevant aspect of this culture (in terms of the riots) is that it is very much a street culture (despite British weather). Winter or summer there are always crowds of blacks out on the Frontline rapping, smoking, laughing, visibly occupying their social space. But it is the cops who claim they control the streets of London. Certainly, the two years I've lived on the Frontline I've noticed that the cops have always tried to intimidate the Frontline community with constant vehicle and foot patrols and less frequently, horse patrols. (The most bizarre policing incident I've ever seen happened a few months ago when a cop on horse-back chased someone down Mayall Road). Actually, the cops know they cannot fully control the Frontline. Despite their claims and their patrols the police policy on the Frontline has been one of containment- periodical raids to remind locals who is boss and to warn them not to get out of hand. Operations such as the one in 1978, when the SPO sealed off the Frontline and searched anybody and everybody, have caused outrage. Blacks, especially the second generation, are, on the whole defiant. A month or so ago a black motorist tore up the ticket a cop had just given him and threw it back in his face to cheers from the assembled crowd. The cops constantly use the SUS laws to stop and search young blacks. And they do this with vengeance. Another event on the Frontline will illustrate this. Two vehicles collided and the cops on the scene immediately searched both vehicles and their drivers and passengers. The accident was secondary. With such everyday deprivation and such mindless state bullying, for being deprived, the one thing which united the disparate elements of the Frontline community is a burning hatred for the cops. What most surprised local people when the Bristol riots happened last year was that they hadn't happened here first. Another surprise was that the anarchist graffiti which went up after Bristol-' Bristol yesterday, Brixton today ' took a year to be made real. The establishment knew this too: Only a few months ago Lambeth Council published a report criticising the cops and predicting trouble. The constant intense policing of Brixton and of the Frontline in particular was heightened in the week leading up to the riots. At 11pm on Friday April 3rd., the Frontline area around Dexter and Leeson Roads was sealed off by cops with no-one being allowed in or out for over an hour. Over 20 arrests were made. Then, in the following week, Operation Swamp 81 saw over 1,000 people (mainly young blacks) stopped and searched. This was all adding to the increasing frustration of local people. At about 2.30am on Friday 10th I was stopped and threatened by 3 young blacks with bottles. This confused and angered me (it was the first time I'd ever been hassled on the Frontline) and it was only later that I realised that they had been victims of 'Swamp 81', perhaps only minutes before meeting me. " The riot itself kicked off soon after. "the left-overs of capitalist society." Who was the eyewitness, Corbyn or Trotsky?
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P-K4

10 Oct 15 12.28pm

Quote Kermit8 at 10 Oct 2015 8.43am

An eyewitness 1981 account from someone living right in the middle of it:

"By now the social and economic background to the Brixton riots will be familiar to most people.

A housing waiting list, in the borough in which Brixton is situated, of 18,000; a third of the housing stock sub-standard; high unemployment with about 2 out of 3 of the unemployed being black; a high robbery rate (in fact the highest in London, it being twice the nearest figure); next to no social amenities. This is all very true.

The area around the Railton Road (Frontline/Mayall Road triangle) is inhabited by mainly black council tenants and white squatters (leftists/anarchists/marginals).

Empty houses are also used by local blacks as drinking and gambling clubs, dope centres and venues for all-night 'Blues' parties with sound systems pumping out non-stop reggae.

Down the Frontline a black crafts centre has recently started in one empty building and further down a former black bookshop is now a squatted anarchist bookshop.

People down here tend to live on the left-overs of capitalist society. For years, the Triangle has been on the drawing board for demolition but only in the last two has any attempt been made to carry this out.

But the council keep running out of money so it has been coming down piecemeal, making a rough area look even rougher. However, the maze of streets west of the Frontline look brighter as they have increasingly come under the occupation of white, liberal professionals and self-made respectable blacks.

Down the Frontline there are two distinct cultures - the black and the white - and it is the black culture which predominates and on the fringes of which the young whites participate.

Dope and Reggae. The blacks have their own language - Patois - and this gives them an independent cultural identity that is not easily co-opted or diluted.

Perhaps the most relevant aspect of this culture (in terms of the riots) is that it is very much a street culture (despite British weather). Winter or summer there are always crowds of blacks out on the Frontline rapping, smoking, laughing, visibly occupying their social space.

But it is the cops who claim they control the streets of London.

Certainly, the two years I've lived on the Frontline I've noticed that the cops have always tried to intimidate the Frontline community with constant vehicle and foot patrols and less frequently, horse patrols. (The most bizarre policing incident I've ever seen happened a few months ago when a cop on horse-back chased someone down Mayall Road).

Actually, the cops know they cannot fully control the Frontline. Despite their claims and their patrols the police policy on the Frontline has been one of containment- periodical raids to remind locals who is boss and to warn them not to get out of hand.

Operations such as the one in 1978, when the SPO sealed off the Frontline and searched anybody and everybody, have caused outrage. Blacks, especially the second generation, are, on the whole defiant.

A month or so ago a black motorist tore up the ticket a cop had just given him and threw it back in his face to cheers from the assembled crowd. The cops constantly use the SUS laws to stop and search young blacks.

And they do this with vengeance. Another event on the Frontline will illustrate this. Two vehicles collided and the cops on the scene immediately searched both vehicles and their drivers and passengers. The accident was secondary.

With such everyday deprivation and such mindless state bullying, for being deprived, the one thing which united the disparate elements of the Frontline community is a burning hatred for the cops.

What most surprised local people when the Bristol riots happened last year was that they hadn't happened here first. Another surprise was that the anarchist graffiti which went up after Bristol-' Bristol yesterday, Brixton today ' took a year to be made real.

The establishment knew this too: Only a few months ago Lambeth Council published a report criticising the cops and predicting trouble. The constant intense policing of Brixton and of the Frontline in particular was heightened in the week leading up to the riots.

At 11pm on Friday April 3rd., the Frontline area around Dexter and Leeson Roads was sealed off by cops with no-one being allowed in or out for over an hour. Over 20 arrests were made.

Then, in the following week, Operation Swamp 81 saw over 1,000 people (mainly young blacks) stopped and searched. This was all adding to the increasing frustration of local people.

At about 2.30am on Friday 10th I was stopped and threatened by 3 young blacks with bottles.

This confused and angered me (it was the first time I'd ever been hassled on the Frontline) and it was only later that I realised that they had been victims of 'Swamp 81', perhaps only minutes before meeting me. "

The riot itself kicked off soon after.

"the left-overs of capitalist society." Who was the eyewitness, Corbyn or Trotsky?

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Stirlingsays 10 Oct 15 12.31pm
Quote nickgusset at 10 Oct 2015 11.35am I bet the police are very pissed off by the current governments treatment of them considering how they helped Thatcher. I think Blair pissed them off a bit too......But yeah....Since 2008 being working class in this country has seen your pay destroyed.....The better off....Not so much. Pay in the public services has been permanently stuck at one percent to reduce standards of living.....Essentially all the pay increases of the past are gone....As a degree level job and profession being a teacher isn't a very sensible living. Not something I'd recommend to a graduate. Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Oct 2015 12.32pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Oct 15 12.31pm

Quote nickgusset at 10 Oct 2015 11.35am

I bet the police are very pissed off by the current governments treatment of them considering how they helped Thatcher.

I think Blair pissed them off a bit too......But yeah....Since 2008 being working class in this country has seen your pay destroyed.....The better off....Not so much.

Pay in the public services has been permanently stuck at one percent to reduce standards of living.....Essentially all the pay increases of the past are gone....As a degree level job and profession being a teacher isn't a very sensible living. Not something I'd recommend to a graduate.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Oct 2015 12.32pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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P-K4 10 Oct 15 12.41pm
Quote nickgusset at 10 Oct 2015 11.35am I bet the police are very pissed off by the current governments treatment of them considering how they helped Thatcher. Yeah, bloody police, carrying out government orders and trying to stop criminality. Get rid of them I say, and let the 'people' get on with rioting, raping and looting as they liberate us from the awful police-state that we suffer under.
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P-K4

10 Oct 15 12.41pm

Quote nickgusset at 10 Oct 2015 11.35am

I bet the police are very pissed off by the current governments treatment of them considering how they helped Thatcher.

Yeah, bloody police, carrying out government orders and trying to stop criminality. Get rid of them I say, and let the 'people' get on with rioting, raping and looting as they liberate us from the awful police-state that we suffer under.

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Kermit8 Hevon 10 Oct 15 12.42pm
Quote P-K4 at 10 Oct 2015 12.41pm Quote nickgusset at 10 Oct 2015 11.35am I bet the police are very pissed off by the current governments treatment of them considering how they helped Thatcher. Yeah, bloody police, carrying out government orders and trying to stop criminality. Get rid of them I say, and let the 'people' get on with rioting, raping and looting as they liberate us from the awful police-state that we suffer under. Guise number 9 Derek. Congratulations. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 10 Oct 15 12.42pm

Quote P-K4 at 10 Oct 2015 12.41pm

Quote nickgusset at 10 Oct 2015 11.35am

I bet the police are very pissed off by the current governments treatment of them considering how they helped Thatcher.

Guise number 9 Derek. Congratulations.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 10 Oct 15 12.44pm
Quote P-K4 at 10 Oct 2015 12.41pm Quote nickgusset at 10 Oct 2015 11.35am I bet the police are very pissed off by the current governments treatment of them considering how they helped Thatcher. Yeah, bloody police, carrying out government orders and trying to stop criminality. Get rid of them I say, and let the 'people' get on with rioting, raping and looting as they liberate us from the awful police-state that we suffer under. Yep, and of course all the governments in history who said they were 'socialists' had Police forces that were.....Robust, shall we say. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Oct 15 12.44pm

Quote P-K4 at 10 Oct 2015 12.41pm

Quote nickgusset at 10 Oct 2015 11.35am

I bet the police are very pissed off by the current governments treatment of them considering how they helped Thatcher.

Yep, and of course all the governments in history who said they were 'socialists' had Police forces that were.....Robust, shall we say.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Hrolf The Ganger 10 Oct 15 1.42pm
Clearly the fashion on here is to ban any noisy right wingers. That's fine as long as loony lefties get the same treatment. I haven't seen that yet in my time on here. The latest guy was presumably a serial offender. There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol.
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Hrolf The Ganger

10 Oct 15 1.42pm

Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger

Clearly the fashion on here is to ban any noisy right wingers. That's fine as long as loony lefties get the same treatment. I haven't seen that yet in my time on here. The latest guy was presumably a serial offender.

There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol.

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P-Q4 10 Oct 15 2.49pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 10 Oct 2015 1.42pm Clearly the fashion on here is to ban any noisy right wingers. That's fine as long as loony lefties get the same treatment. I haven't seen that yet in my time on here. The latest guy was presumably a serial offender. There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol. The only way you can survive here if you dare to criticise the left wing nonsense that is posted, is to be a paying member. The comrades sacrifice their 'principles' for cash.
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P-Q4

10 Oct 15 2.49pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 10 Oct 2015 1.42pm

There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol.

The only way you can survive here if you dare to criticise the left wing nonsense that is posted, is to be a paying member. The comrades sacrifice their 'principles' for cash.

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P-Q4 10 Oct 15 2.53pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 10 Oct 2015 2.11am Quote legaleagle at 09 Oct 2015 11.32pm As you posted earlier ,you were living quite a way away from the main action in Stockwell,as a kid,watching from a balcony.. A fair few white males indeed joined in.I knew one of them..he got done for it. Yes,some women got raped and some white people got randomly beaten up because they were white.Not good.In fact,very bad.When pent up fury explodes,things really do get out of control. But to try to shift the blame for why the populace kicked off in such spectacular style from pent up frustration and rage at the way the area had been policed for some years and SUS etc...is about as credible as our "friend" trotting out the hoary old nonsense that Stephen Lawrence got killed for some kind of quasi legitimate reason.You didn't have to be a prophet to see it brewing up and coming down the tracks. As for the slagging of Doreen Lawrence by our "friend",I've dealt with her professionally and she's a thoroughly decent woman motivated by all the right reasons,arising from the senseless sick slaying of her son.She may have become obsessive,but that's hardly a reason to slag her and I suspect if she was a white woman who had campaigned in the same way against police inaction against say paedophiles following something happening to her son of that ilk,the same poster would perhaps laud her.The Met and its policies and training are IMO a far better thing now because of the likes of her. Edited by legaleagle (09 Oct 2015 11.33pm) Mmmm....You knew a white kid involved in the Brixton riots and you worked with Lawrence..... By the way, the rape event I'm referring to were two 16 year old girls.....'some women' eh. If their skin colour were black and the perpetrators were white you might even have known about the event properly. I'm not sure what a 'fair few' really translates as but I believe the false suggestion is being made that this event perpetrated by thugs had some local white support. Any white individual out there involved in this was nothing but a thug. Outside of thugs and the far left (the usual suspects) the Brixton riots wasn't justified by anyone. As for me Stockwell Park Estate...Or more accurately Norton House overlooks a junction near Stockwell Park, I saw a roadblock and people being dragged out of cars and beaten up. I don't remember black people being beaten up. By the way Norton House isn't that far from Brixton road. I believe there is a false picture of a racist police force deliberately repressing an innocent black community. With the riots being an understandable response. While I accept that being in the Police and dealing with a large amount of people trash every day can make you cynical I don't believe in this narrative that we had a 'racist' Police force outside of bad apples. A cynical Police force yeah...with damn good reason, doing an almost impossible job dealing with criminal elements who were far more 'racist' than they ever could be. A Police force like any other in the world. made up of human beings trying their best....One of the better ones in the world. The criminal elements within the black community that they had to deal with got away with murder. No go areas were an insult and I blame the liberals and the left for it with their justifications and one eyed focus ......The Police became scared to do their job because of the media and the left. Blair filled the management with lefty wimps. I abhor the creation of the kind of Police force we have now. You may like it but I no longer respect it in quite the same way. Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Oct 2015 2.18am) Excellent analysis Stirling.
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P-Q4

10 Oct 15 2.53pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 10 Oct 2015 2.11am

Quote legaleagle at 09 Oct 2015 11.32pm

As you posted earlier ,you were living quite a way away from the main action in Stockwell,as a kid,watching from a balcony..

A fair few white males indeed joined in.I knew one of them..he got done for it.

Yes,some women got raped and some white people got randomly beaten up because they were white.Not good.In fact,very bad.When pent up fury explodes,things really do get out of control.

But to try to shift the blame for why the populace kicked off in such spectacular style from pent up frustration and rage at the way the area had been policed for some years and SUS etc...is about as credible as our "friend" trotting out the hoary old nonsense that Stephen Lawrence got killed for some kind of quasi legitimate reason.You didn't have to be a prophet to see it brewing up and coming down the tracks.

As for the slagging of Doreen Lawrence by our "friend",I've dealt with her professionally and she's a thoroughly decent woman motivated by all the right reasons,arising from the senseless sick slaying of her son.She may have become obsessive,but that's hardly a reason to slag her and I suspect if she was a white woman who had campaigned in the same way against police inaction against say paedophiles following something happening to her son of that ilk,the same poster would perhaps laud her.The Met and its policies and training are IMO a far better thing now because of the likes of her.

Edited by legaleagle (09 Oct 2015 11.33pm)

Mmmm....You knew a white kid involved in the Brixton riots and you worked with Lawrence.....

By the way, the rape event I'm referring to were two 16 year old girls.....'some women' eh. If their skin colour were black and the perpetrators were white you might even have known about the event properly.

I'm not sure what a 'fair few' really translates as but I believe the false suggestion is being made that this event perpetrated by thugs had some local white support. Any white individual out there involved in this was nothing but a thug. Outside of thugs and the far left (the usual suspects) the Brixton riots wasn't justified by anyone.

As for me Stockwell Park Estate...Or more accurately Norton House overlooks a junction near Stockwell Park, I saw a roadblock and people being dragged out of cars and beaten up. I don't remember black people being beaten up. By the way Norton House isn't that far from Brixton road.

I believe there is a false picture of a racist police force deliberately repressing an innocent black community. With the riots being an understandable response.

While I accept that being in the Police and dealing with a large amount of people trash every day can make you cynical I don't believe in this narrative that we had a 'racist' Police force outside of bad apples.

A cynical Police force yeah...with damn good reason, doing an almost impossible job dealing with criminal elements who were far more 'racist' than they ever could be. A Police force like any other in the world. made up of human beings trying their best....One of the better ones in the world.

The criminal elements within the black community that they had to deal with got away with murder. No go areas were an insult and I blame the liberals and the left for it with their justifications and one eyed focus ......The Police became scared to do their job because of the media and the left. Blair filled the management with lefty wimps.

I abhor the creation of the kind of Police force we have now. You may like it but I no longer respect it in quite the same way.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Oct 2015 2.18am)

Excellent analysis Stirling.

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P-Q4 10 Oct 15 3.00pm
As the left predictably blame the Brixton riots on the police harassing black people in general due to the crimes of a few, can we expect disc jockeys to run amok in Broadcasting House over them being harassed over sex crimes?
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P-Q4

10 Oct 15 3.00pm

As the left predictably blame the Brixton riots on the police harassing black people in general due to the crimes of a few, can we expect disc jockeys to run amok in Broadcasting House over them being harassed over sex crimes?

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Guntrisoft Beckenham, Kent 10 Oct 15 3.12pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 10 Oct 2015 1.42pm Clearly the fashion on here is to ban any noisy right wingers. That's fine as long as loony lefties get the same treatment. I haven't seen that yet in my time on here. The latest guy was presumably a serial offender. There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol. We will let people debate as long as they stick within the rules, there is no pro left or right, especially with me as I couldn't give a toss about politics - I set this site up as a Palace website predominantly. The person who is getting banned has been banned before and is not welcome on the website - not because of his political beliefs but purely because I see him as a nasty piece of work who has sent me several very abusive emails in the past - I choose who is welcome and not welcome on my own website at the end of the day. So don't bother signing up again, you will always get banned - go and debate politics on another website - you are not welcome here. Webmaster - The Holmesdale Online Follow the HOL on Twitter! [Link] and Facebook [Link]
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Guntrisoft

Beckenham, Kent 10 Oct 15 3.12pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 10 Oct 2015 1.42pm

There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol.

We will let people debate as long as they stick within the rules, there is no pro left or right, especially with me as I couldn't give a toss about politics - I set this site up as a Palace website predominantly.

The person who is getting banned has been banned before and is not welcome on the website - not because of his political beliefs but purely because I see him as a nasty piece of work who has sent me several very abusive emails in the past - I choose who is welcome and not welcome on my own website at the end of the day.

So don't bother signing up again, you will always get banned - go and debate politics on another website - you are not welcome here.

Webmaster - The Holmesdale Online
Follow the HOL on Twitter! [Link] and Facebook [Link]

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Stirlingsays 10 Oct 15 3.20pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 10 Oct 2015 1.42pm Clearly the fashion on here is to ban any noisy right wingers. That's fine as long as loony lefties get the same treatment. I haven't seen that yet in my time on here. The latest guy was presumably a serial offender. There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol. I must admit it's starting to worry me. Have I got it wrong or are right wingers being red carded quite easily? There are some iffy lefties as well but I don't wish them a red card either. Outside of swearing at someone or stalking them it should be reasonably difficult to get a card. Maybe there is something we aren't privy to......But no one wants a board with a narrow viewpoint base. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Oct 15 3.20pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 10 Oct 2015 1.42pm

There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol.

I must admit it's starting to worry me.

Have I got it wrong or are right wingers being red carded quite easily?

There are some iffy lefties as well but I don't wish them a red card either. Outside of swearing at someone or stalking them it should be reasonably difficult to get a card.

Maybe there is something we aren't privy to......But no one wants a board with a narrow viewpoint base.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 10 Oct 15 3.21pm
Quote Guntrisoft at 10 Oct 2015 3.12pm Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 10 Oct 2015 1.42pm Clearly the fashion on here is to ban any noisy right wingers. That's fine as long as loony lefties get the same treatment. I haven't seen that yet in my time on here. The latest guy was presumably a serial offender. There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol. We will let people debate as long as they stick within the rules, there is no pro left or right, especially with me as I couldn't give a toss about politics - I set this site up as a Palace website predominantly. The person who is getting banned has been banned before and is not welcome on the website - not because of his political beliefs but purely because I see him as a nasty piece of work who has sent me several very abusive emails in the past - I choose who is welcome and not welcome on my own website at the end of the day. So don't bother signing up again, you will always get banned - go and debate politics on another website - you are not welcome here. I see....A repeat account...Fair enough. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

10 Oct 15 3.21pm

Quote Guntrisoft at 10 Oct 2015 3.12pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 10 Oct 2015 1.42pm

There doesn't seem to be too much middle ground on here but then it could be worse. It could be the BBS. A few moments on there and one is left running in fear for their sanity back to the Hol.

So don't bother signing up again, you will always get banned - go and debate politics on another website - you are not welcome here.

I see....A repeat account...Fair enough.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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