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Stuk Top half 24 Nov 14 11.18pm | |
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Quote serial thriller at 24 Nov 2014 5.19pm
Quote Stuk at 24 Nov 2014 3.15pm
Quote serial thriller at 22 Nov 2014 7.24pm
Quote Stuk at 21 Nov 2014 2.42pm
Quote nickgusset at 20 Nov 2014 10.23pm
I went into reading 'revolution' ,his book with an open mind. The more I read, the better he is coming across. He is very self depreciating but makes good points and backs them up well. It's worth bearing in mind, to me any way, that he is only getting such a roasting in the press because he is speaking out against the status qui (no not that one Hoof before you mention it ) Edited by nickgusset (20 Nov 2014 10.23pm) Not because he's just saying popular things that have no chance of happening? "Do you think you're paying too much rent? Would you like to earn more? because there might be others out there who think the same." No s***, Russell. I'm sorry, what could you possibly have against those sentiments? Rent, particularly in the capital, is as high as it is anywhere else in the world, while 52% of those in poverty are in work. Neither of those things need to be, and it is not radical to suggest that a collective opposition to such policies is better than an apathetic passivity towards fundamental changes to our social fabric. Look at the grassroots movements in London against evictions and rent prices, and the successes they've had, and tell us again that these are just 'popular things that have no chance of happening'...
You can't dictate rent levels, and you certainly can't demand landlords take a reduction in current levels. The same goes for just giving everyone a payrise. The private sector is private. You set your prices and find out whether people will pay them/work for them, or not. No matter what a terrible actor decides to write in a book, for his own profit.
The comment in bold directly contradicts the society we live in today though. We don't live in a totally free market, because we bail out private banks with public money, have an obligatory minimum wage set by central government, have academy schools funded by private individuals that implement governmental syllabus' etc. etc. etc. You also can 'just give everyone a payrise' as we saw just the other week when the Tories raised the minimum wage, and as we see in the fact that Labour and the Greens want to increase it further. You also can have rent control, which we did before 1980, around the time the housing market exploded. I'm not recommending it, as I believe the abolition of Private Property would be of more use, but it's stupid to narrow your conception in to what one can and can't do. History shows you can do multiple things, with varying effects. I'm sure that'll be all of the profit, therefore not including his fees. I was all for letting Northern Rock go under when the run on that happened. The majority of investors were already protected under FSCS but labour bailed them out anyway and let the rest of the banks know they were too big to fail, rather than setting an example.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Nov 14 10.14am | |
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Quote elgrande at 24 Nov 2014 6.35pm
Quote serial thriller at 24 Nov 2014 5.19pm
Quote Stuk at 24 Nov 2014 3.15pm
Quote serial thriller at 22 Nov 2014 7.24pm
Quote Stuk at 21 Nov 2014 2.42pm
Quote nickgusset at 20 Nov 2014 10.23pm
I went into reading 'revolution' ,his book with an open mind. The more I read, the better he is coming across. He is very self depreciating but makes good points and backs them up well. It's worth bearing in mind, to me any way, that he is only getting such a roasting in the press because he is speaking out against the status qui (no not that one Hoof before you mention it ) Edited by nickgusset (20 Nov 2014 10.23pm) Not because he's just saying popular things that have no chance of happening? "Do you think you're paying too much rent? Would you like to earn more? because there might be others out there who think the same." No s***, Russell. I'm sorry, what could you possibly have against those sentiments? Rent, particularly in the capital, is as high as it is anywhere else in the world, while 52% of those in poverty are in work. Neither of those things need to be, and it is not radical to suggest that a collective opposition to such policies is better than an apathetic passivity towards fundamental changes to our social fabric. Look at the grassroots movements in London against evictions and rent prices, and the successes they've had, and tell us again that these are just 'popular things that have no chance of happening'...
You can't dictate rent levels, and you certainly can't demand landlords take a reduction in current levels. The same goes for just giving everyone a payrise. The private sector is private. You set your prices and find out whether people will pay them/work for them, or not. No matter what a terrible actor decides to write in a book, for his own profit.
The comment in bold directly contradicts the society we live in today though. We don't live in a totally free market, because we bail out private banks with public money, have an obligatory minimum wage set by central government, have academy schools funded by private individuals that implement governmental syllabus' etc. etc. etc. You also can 'just give everyone a payrise' as we saw just the other week when the Tories raised the minimum wage, and as we see in the fact that Labour and the Greens want to increase it further. You also can have rent control, which we did before 1980, around the time the housing market exploded. I'm not recommending it, as I believe the abolition of Private Property would be of more use, but it's stupid to narrow your conception in to what one can and can't do. History shows you can do multiple things, with varying effects.
Pretty much, whilst I'm kind of in agreement in the ideology of abolition, I can't really see that kind of thing being accepted without somekind of major revolution or catastrophic natural disaster.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Johnny Eagles berlin 26 Nov 14 8.58am | |
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Quote serial thriller at 24 Nov 2014 5.19pm
You also can 'just give everyone a payrise' as we saw just the other week when the Tories raised the minimum wage, and as we see in the fact that Labour and the Greens want to increase it further. You also can have rent control, which we did before 1980, around the time the housing market exploded. Er, possibly a bit misleading there. “Before 1980”… ie, before Thatcher... they started decontrolling rents in 1957, ie, a long way before 1980. It was very *gradual* (you could only re-adjust rent once tenants had moved on) and there was lots of to-ing and fro-ing (Labour re-controlled, then de-controlled, and so on). The 1980 Housing Act wasn’t a Thatcherite Big Bang by any means. I could also bore everyone with a lecture about the dangers of Rachmanism and how de-controlling rents is not just about rampant profit-mongering, but can also help to avoid slum landlords and underinvestment, but let’s not let that get in the way of an idiotic lefty rant. I just had to pick you up on the “before 1980” comment, because it was lazy and misleading. And as for this: Quote serial thriller at 24 Nov 2014 5.19pm
I believe the abolition of Private Property would be of more use I’m not even going to comment. Just leave it to hang there while I gaze at in wonderment.
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Hoof Hearted 26 Nov 14 12.10pm | |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 26 Nov 2014 8.58am
Quote serial thriller at 24 Nov 2014 5.19pm
You also can 'just give everyone a payrise' as we saw just the other week when the Tories raised the minimum wage, and as we see in the fact that Labour and the Greens want to increase it further. You also can have rent control, which we did before 1980, around the time the housing market exploded. Er, possibly a bit misleading there. “Before 1980”… ie, before Thatcher... they started decontrolling rents in 1957, ie, a long way before 1980. It was very *gradual* (you could only re-adjust rent once tenants had moved on) and there was lots of to-ing and fro-ing (Labour re-controlled, then de-controlled, and so on). The 1980 Housing Act wasn’t a Thatcherite Big Bang by any means. I could also bore everyone with a lecture about the dangers of Rachmanism and how de-controlling rents is not just about rampant profit-mongering, but can also help to avoid slum landlords and underinvestment, but let’s not let that get in the way of an idiotic lefty rant. I just had to pick you up on the “before 1980” comment, because it was lazy and misleading. And as for this: Quote serial thriller at 24 Nov 2014 5.19pm
I believe the abolition of Private Property would be of more use I’m not even going to comment. Just leave it to hang there while I gaze at in wonderment.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Nov 14 12.41pm | |
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Quote Hoof Hearted at 26 Nov 2014 12.10pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 26 Nov 2014 8.58am
Quote serial thriller at 24 Nov 2014 5.19pm
You also can 'just give everyone a payrise' as we saw just the other week when the Tories raised the minimum wage, and as we see in the fact that Labour and the Greens want to increase it further. You also can have rent control, which we did before 1980, around the time the housing market exploded. Er, possibly a bit misleading there. “Before 1980”… ie, before Thatcher... they started decontrolling rents in 1957, ie, a long way before 1980. It was very *gradual* (you could only re-adjust rent once tenants had moved on) and there was lots of to-ing and fro-ing (Labour re-controlled, then de-controlled, and so on). The 1980 Housing Act wasn’t a Thatcherite Big Bang by any means. I could also bore everyone with a lecture about the dangers of Rachmanism and how de-controlling rents is not just about rampant profit-mongering, but can also help to avoid slum landlords and underinvestment, but let’s not let that get in the way of an idiotic lefty rant. I just had to pick you up on the “before 1980” comment, because it was lazy and misleading. And as for this: Quote serial thriller at 24 Nov 2014 5.19pm
I believe the abolition of Private Property would be of more use I’m not even going to comment. Just leave it to hang there while I gaze at in wonderment.
That's why Marx drank Camomile you know. I don't really see an issue with the idea of a society without personal ownership per se. What is hard to see is a route from where we are now, to where that would be, that didn't really involve a lot of things being burned down and a few civil wars over the matter Edited by jamiemartin721 (26 Nov 2014 12.42pm)
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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serial thriller The Promised Land 26 Nov 14 12.43pm | |
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Jeez, guess I should probably defend myself then. To call for the abolition of private property has not, historically, necessarily been an implausibly radical concept. I read a pretty interesting thing about the Levellers the other day, from around the Civil War period in England, and they argued from a religious perspective that as property had only ever been gained via oppression, theft or murder, and that this contradicted the teachings of Christianity that in an ideal Roundhead society would be practiced. So these things have been genuinely discussed. But sadly in the post-Cold War period, to even suggest such a thing is to be roundly mocked as having views which are perhaps impractical, or even totally implausible. And property is still based on those three things: oppression, theft or murder, and thus should still therefore be challenged. And I don't mean paying your mortgage involves a blood sacrifice, I mean that the very idea you must pay for a stable habitat to live in and the reason someone else has any right to claim ownership is a f*cking joke. The Queen still owns 6,600 million acres of land. How did she get that? What need has one person to own so much land, other than to extract money from her tenants through a rent which she ultimately can arbitrarily fix, and why should she own it when it's simply been passed down to her via her murdering, thieving oppressive regal predecessors? A post-private property society wouldn't mean kicking you out of your home, it would simply mean that the primitive animal need to have a roof over your head wouldn't be decided on your financial clout. I agree with Jamie that this view is so far from the political mainstream at the minute that it would probably take a revolution to occur, but isn't that the depressing point, that we have reached a stage where the idea of certain human beings 'owning' large masses of land at the detriment of almost all other human beings is just accepted without thought?
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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Johnny Eagles berlin 26 Nov 14 3.17pm | |
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Needless to say, I simply don't accept the premise that private property is based on "oppression, theft or murder". Maybe in the 11th century, but today? Don't be daft. On the contrary, private property is one of the biggest guarantors of freedom we have. Certainly more robust than the flimsy protections provided by a universal suffrage democracy and representative government. Abolish private property and you have two options: 1. Anarchy. During periods of which oppression, theft and murder tend to thrive. 2. Some kind of collective organisation running things "on behalf of" individuals. Again, the historical precedents of this aren't good.
...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread... |
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npn Crowborough 26 Nov 14 3.58pm | |
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Quote serial thriller at 26 Nov 2014 12.43pm
Jeez, guess I should probably defend myself then. To call for the abolition of private property has not, historically, necessarily been an implausibly radical concept. I read a pretty interesting thing about the Levellers the other day, from around the Civil War period in England, and they argued from a religious perspective that as property had only ever been gained via oppression, theft or murder, and that this contradicted the teachings of Christianity that in an ideal Roundhead society would be practiced. So these things have been genuinely discussed. But sadly in the post-Cold War period, to even suggest such a thing is to be roundly mocked as having views which are perhaps impractical, or even totally implausible. And property is still based on those three things: oppression, theft or murder, and thus should still therefore be challenged. And I don't mean paying your mortgage involves a blood sacrifice, I mean that the very idea you must pay for a stable habitat to live in and the reason someone else has any right to claim ownership is a f*cking joke. The Queen still owns 6,600 million acres of land. How did she get that? What need has one person to own so much land, other than to extract money from her tenants through a rent which she ultimately can arbitrarily fix, and why should she own it when it's simply been passed down to her via her murdering, thieving oppressive regal predecessors? A post-private property society wouldn't mean kicking you out of your home, it would simply mean that the primitive animal need to have a roof over your head wouldn't be decided on your financial clout. I agree with Jamie that this view is so far from the political mainstream at the minute that it would probably take a revolution to occur, but isn't that the depressing point, that we have reached a stage where the idea of certain human beings 'owning' large masses of land at the detriment of almost all other human beings is just accepted without thought?
your posts (while I don't often agree) usually contain a semblance of sense - that one just seems ridiculous. Does your 'no private property' idea extend to ALL property, i.e. your personal possessions, clothing, cars, etc?
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Pawson Palace Croydon 26 Nov 14 4.45pm | |
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Surely if you work hard and are a productive member of society you should be entitled to have a home you can call your own? If the state housed, watered and fed everyone would anything ever be done? There has to be a reward for hard work, enterprise and innovation otherwise what is the point if everything you've worked for is taken away? I bought my flat at the tender age of 22 and the idea that I wouldn't own it doesn't sit right with me. I've forgone a hell of lot to be able to afford that place and even some 5 years later it's still not easy. It's also made me work hard in order to better myself so I can life more comfortably and not have to worry about money in later life. Part of this is the problem with some people my age, they simply don't want to roll up their sleeves and get on with it. The sense of entitlement and having everything on a plate for them is such a cancerous mind-set that is spreading rapidly.
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Stuk Top half 26 Nov 14 4.50pm | |
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Why are you lot even trying to debate the notion of abolishing private property, when just three words are needed. Don't be daft.
Optimistic as ever |
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ghosteagle 26 Nov 14 5.26pm | |
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Quote serial thriller at 26 Nov 2014 12.43pm
Jeez, guess I should probably defend myself then. To call for the abolition of private property has not, historically, necessarily been an implausibly radical concept. I read a pretty interesting thing about the Levellers the other day, from around the Civil War period in England, and they argued from a religious perspective that as property had only ever been gained via oppression, theft or murder, and that this contradicted the teachings of Christianity that in an ideal Roundhead society would be practiced. So these things have been genuinely discussed. But sadly in the post-Cold War period, to even suggest such a thing is to be roundly mocked as having views which are perhaps impractical, or even totally implausible. And property is still based on those three things: oppression, theft or murder, and thus should still therefore be challenged. And I don't mean paying your mortgage involves a blood sacrifice, I mean that the very idea you must pay for a stable habitat to live in and the reason someone else has any right to claim ownership is a f*cking joke. The Queen still owns 6,600 million acres of land. How did she get that? What need has one person to own so much land, other than to extract money from her tenants through a rent which she ultimately can arbitrarily fix, and why should she own it when it's simply been passed down to her via her murdering, thieving oppressive regal predecessors? A post-private property society wouldn't mean kicking you out of your home, it would simply mean that the primitive animal need to have a roof over your head wouldn't be decided on your financial clout. I agree with Jamie that this view is so far from the political mainstream at the minute that it would probably take a revolution to occur, but isn't that the depressing point, that we have reached a stage where the idea of certain human beings 'owning' large masses of land at the detriment of almost all other human beings is just accepted without thought? Good post.
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ghosteagle 26 Nov 14 5.26pm | |
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Quote Stuk at 26 Nov 2014 4.50pm
Why are you lot even trying to debate the notion of abolishing private property, when just three words are needed. Don't be daft.
People too greedy.
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