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BlueJay UK 12 Aug 21 10.45pm
Originally posted by Matov As you lot speculate on what happened in New York on September 11th, the reaction it spurred in terms of the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taleban is probably going to lead to, and potentially on the 20th anniversary of the heinous events, concluding with the Taleban back in charge of Kabul. Over 500 British lives, and numerous more injured and maimed, along with thousands of our allies also dying, for what? Sweet f* All. Apart from a load of arms manufacturers getting richer and no doubt another migrant crisis as Afghans decide, and with perfect justification, to get the hell out of dodge and seek out a better life abroad. I believe that September 11th happened because a small group of maniacs hijacked 4 airliners and then flew 3 of them into buildings whilst the 4th crashed after its passangers rebelled. But why this current f-up has been allowed to play out is the real conspiracy. The US capitulating to a load of f-heads in flip-flops and driving around on motor-bikes. I do hate to lecture but seriously, if you want to don the tin-foil hats, focus on this. Because we are all being screwed over big time. Over 500 British service personnel dead for nothing. Absolutely wasted lives. And now, unreal barbarity about to engulf millions once more. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan. All massive f* ups. And for what? Who gains from this s***? Edited by Matov (12 Aug 2021 10.05pm) I'll sound a little conspiracy minded myself, but I certainly do think that the military industrial complex is very real, and that there are conveyor belts that are far from eager to slow. Maybe world events have thrown a spanner in these particular works but there are certainly huge industries interested in endless war come what may, and the rights and wrongs of any conflict are infinity less relevant to them than their bottom line and keeping the wheels turning. As the middle east has often been on the receiving end (and our repeated 'mission accomplished' is always anything but) I really don't see that we've ever helped them our ourselves, simply put trillions into pockets of those who have no real interest inhumanity, or allegiance beyond their own bank balance and ability to influence. They have the ear, and often the twisted arm of those in power, and so help craft so many of the narratives we've all bought into over the years, to the detriment of ourselves and others. Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.11pm)
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BlueJay

UK 12 Aug 21 10.45pm

Originally posted by Matov

As you lot speculate on what happened in New York on September 11th, the reaction it spurred in terms of the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taleban is probably going to lead to, and potentially on the 20th anniversary of the heinous events, concluding with the Taleban back in charge of Kabul.

Over 500 British lives, and numerous more injured and maimed, along with thousands of our allies also dying, for what? Sweet f*** All. Apart from a load of arms manufacturers getting richer and no doubt another migrant crisis as Afghans decide, and with perfect justification, to get the hell out of dodge and seek out a better life abroad.

I believe that September 11th happened because a small group of maniacs hijacked 4 airliners and then flew 3 of them into buildings whilst the 4th crashed after its passangers rebelled.

But why this current f***-up has been allowed to play out is the real conspiracy. The US capitulating to a load of f***-heads in flip-flops and driving around on motor-bikes.

I do hate to lecture but seriously, if you want to don the tin-foil hats, focus on this. Because we are all being screwed over big time.

Over 500 British service personnel dead for nothing. Absolutely wasted lives. And now, unreal barbarity about to engulf millions once more.

Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan. All massive f*** ups. And for what? Who gains from this s***?

Edited by Matov (12 Aug 2021 10.05pm)

I'll sound a little conspiracy minded myself, but I certainly do think that the military industrial complex is very real, and that there are conveyor belts that are far from eager to slow. Maybe world events have thrown a spanner in these particular works but there are certainly huge industries interested in endless war come what may, and the rights and wrongs of any conflict are infinity less relevant to them than their bottom line and keeping the wheels turning. As the middle east has often been on the receiving end (and our repeated 'mission accomplished' is always anything but) I really don't see that we've ever helped them our ourselves, simply put trillions into pockets of those who have no real interest inhumanity, or allegiance beyond their own bank balance and ability to influence. They have the ear, and often the twisted arm of those in power, and so help craft so many of the narratives we've all bought into over the years, to the detriment of ourselves and others.

Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.11pm)

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cryrst The garden of England 12 Aug 21 10.48pm
Originally posted by Lombardinho Nah. Sorry, Stirling. You can throw complexities of physics and temperatures at it, if you like. But I won't be changing my mind about this anytime soon, I'm afraid. When everything gets stripped away, you'll find the Bush Family and Mr.Silverstein are not the kind of people you can trust. The lift shafts were not solid poured concrete. They were block work. This also contributed to the collapse as these cores are a major player in a buildings strength. If you watch a building going up these are generally the first structures. With respect I beleive this wasn't an inside job and a genuine terror attack.
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cryrst

The garden of England 12 Aug 21 10.48pm

Originally posted by Lombardinho

Nah.
Sorry, Stirling.
You can throw complexities of physics and temperatures at it, if you like.
But I won't be changing my mind about this anytime soon, I'm afraid.
When everything gets stripped away, you'll find the Bush Family and Mr.Silverstein are not the kind of people you can trust.

The lift shafts were not solid poured concrete. They were block work. This also contributed to the collapse as these cores are a major player in a buildings strength. If you watch a building going up these are generally the first structures. With respect I beleive this wasn't an inside job and a genuine terror attack.

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Lombardinho London 12 Aug 21 11.19pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Don't get me wrong I have no issues with your mistrust of these people. Though when you look into what actually happened and what would be required to pull of a domestic attack.....it isn't really possible in my view. I know certain agencies knew because we have evidence for it. I agree with you in that it would be a tough one to pull off. Where we differ is I think they actually DID pull it off! With a little help from all their "friends" including, of course, the media.
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Lombardinho

London 12 Aug 21 11.19pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Don't get me wrong I have no issues with your mistrust of these people.

Though when you look into what actually happened and what would be required to pull of a domestic attack.....it isn't really possible in my view.

I know certain agencies knew because we have evidence for it.

I agree with you in that it would be a tough one to pull off.
Where we differ is I think they actually DID pull it off!
With a little help from all their "friends" including, of course, the media.

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Stirlingsays 12 Aug 21 11.24pm
Originally posted by Matov As you lot speculate on what happened in New York on September 11th, the reaction it spurred in terms of the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taleban is probably going to lead to, and potentially on the 20th anniversary of the heinous events, concluding with the Taleban back in charge of Kabul. Over 500 British lives, and numerous more injured and maimed, along with thousands of our allies also dying, for what? Sweet f* All. Apart from a load of arms manufacturers getting richer and no doubt another migrant crisis as Afghans decide, and with perfect justification, to get the hell out of dodge and seek out a better life abroad. I believe that September 11th happened because a small group of maniacs hijacked 4 airliners and then flew 3 of them into buildings whilst the 4th crashed after its passangers rebelled. But why this current f-up has been allowed to play out is the real conspiracy. The US capitulating to a load of f-heads in flip-flops and driving around on motor-bikes. I do hate to lecture but seriously, if you want to don the tin-foil hats, focus on this. Because we are all being screwed over big time. Over 500 British service personnel dead for nothing. Absolutely wasted lives. And now, unreal barbarity about to engulf millions once more. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan. All massive f* ups. And for what? Who gains from this s***? Edited by Matov (12 Aug 2021 10.05pm) I differ with you a bit here. You say those soldiers died for nothing. I disagree with that on two counts. Firstly, within that 1800 hundred odd 55 British died that day and in my book that meant there was a blood price to pay....that's how I think of it certainly. Secondly, the word soldier doesn't have include the words sold and die for nothing. I come from a military family and the risk of death when you sign up is a small but real part of the package. If you're infanty you are literally the tip of the spear with the primary point of your job to learn how to effectively kill people or be killed. I'm not heartless but 500 soldiers over twenty years isn't even ten minutes of the Somme. I certainly think the way the media has trained people to think about modern day military deaths blows my mind because when I was growing up with the Falklands going on the mindset was very different. And as I said, the number of deaths we took is down to idealistic political decisions from both Bush and Blair. Their disney land neo con ideas about changing that deeply islamic country into a western supporting democracy reveals the complete foolery of the modern politician. I'll agree with you on this.....we wasted lives staying there...and that is on their poor judgement, that's for certain. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Aug 21 11.24pm

Originally posted by Matov

I believe that September 11th happened because a small group of maniacs hijacked 4 airliners and then flew 3 of them into buildings whilst the 4th crashed after its passangers rebelled.

But why this current f***-up has been allowed to play out is the real conspiracy. The US capitulating to a load of f***-heads in flip-flops and driving around on motor-bikes.

I do hate to lecture but seriously, if you want to don the tin-foil hats, focus on this. Because we are all being screwed over big time.

Over 500 British service personnel dead for nothing. Absolutely wasted lives. And now, unreal barbarity about to engulf millions once more.

Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan. All massive f*** ups. And for what? Who gains from this s***?

Edited by Matov (12 Aug 2021 10.05pm)

I differ with you a bit here.

You say those soldiers died for nothing. I disagree with that on two counts.

Firstly, within that 1800 hundred odd 55 British died that day and in my book that meant there was a blood price to pay....that's how I think of it certainly.

Secondly, the word soldier doesn't have include the words sold and die for nothing. I come from a military family and the risk of death when you sign up is a small but real part of the package. If you're infanty you are literally the tip of the spear with the primary point of your job to learn how to effectively kill people or be killed.

I'm not heartless but 500 soldiers over twenty years isn't even ten minutes of the Somme.
I certainly think the way the media has trained people to think about modern day military deaths blows my mind because when I was growing up with the Falklands going on the mindset was very different.

And as I said, the number of deaths we took is down to idealistic political decisions from both Bush and Blair. Their disney land neo con ideas about changing that deeply islamic country into a western supporting democracy reveals the complete foolery of the modern politician.

I'll agree with you on this.....we wasted lives staying there...and that is on their poor judgement, that's for certain.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Lombardinho London 12 Aug 21 11.26pm
Originally posted by Matov As you lot speculate on what happened in New York on September 11th, the reaction it spurred in terms of the invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taleban is probably going to lead to, and potentially on the 20th anniversary of the heinous events, concluding with the Taleban back in charge of Kabul. Over 500 British lives, and numerous more injured and maimed, along with thousands of our allies also dying, for what? Sweet f* All. Apart from a load of arms manufacturers getting richer and no doubt another migrant crisis as Afghans decide, and with perfect justification, to get the hell out of dodge and seek out a better life abroad. I believe that September 11th happened because a small group of maniacs hijacked 4 airliners and then flew 3 of them into buildings whilst the 4th crashed after its passangers rebelled. But why this current f-up has been allowed to play out is the real conspiracy. The US capitulating to a load of f-heads in flip-flops and driving around on motor-bikes. I do hate to lecture but seriously, if you want to don the tin-foil hats, focus on this. Because we are all being screwed over big time. Over 500 British service personnel dead for nothing. Absolutely wasted lives. And now, unreal barbarity about to engulf millions once more. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan. All massive f* ups. And for what? Who gains from this s*? Edited by Matov (12 Aug 2021 10.05pm) A lot of what you say here is spot on, Matov. My only quibble is that the "small group of maniacs" weren't the ones doing the hijacking. No. They're the ones who meticulously planned and executed the whole st show. And by chance they're also the ones who "gain from this s**t" !
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Lombardinho

London 12 Aug 21 11.26pm

Originally posted by Matov

I believe that September 11th happened because a small group of maniacs hijacked 4 airliners and then flew 3 of them into buildings whilst the 4th crashed after its passangers rebelled.

But why this current f***-up has been allowed to play out is the real conspiracy. The US capitulating to a load of f***-heads in flip-flops and driving around on motor-bikes.

I do hate to lecture but seriously, if you want to don the tin-foil hats, focus on this. Because we are all being screwed over big time.

Over 500 British service personnel dead for nothing. Absolutely wasted lives. And now, unreal barbarity about to engulf millions once more.

Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan. All massive f*** ups. And for what? Who gains from this s***?

Edited by Matov (12 Aug 2021 10.05pm)

A lot of what you say here is spot on, Matov.
My only quibble is that the "small group of maniacs" weren't the ones doing the hijacking. No. They're the ones who meticulously planned and executed the whole s**t show.

And by chance they're also the ones who "gain from this s**t" !

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Lombardinho London 12 Aug 21 11.29pm
Originally posted by BlueJay I'll sound a little conspiracy minded myself, but I certainly do think that the military industrial complex is very real, and that there are conveyor belts that are far from eager to slow. Maybe world events have thrown a spanner in these particular works but there are certainly huge industries interested in endless war come what may, and the rights and wrongs of any conflict are infinity less relevant to them than their bottom line and keeping the wheels turning. As the middle east has often been on the receiving end (and our repeated 'mission accomplished' is always anything but) I really don't see that we've ever helped them our ourselves, simply put trillions into pockets of those who have no real interest inhumanity, or allegiance beyond their own bank balance and ability to influence. They have the ear, and often the twisted arm of those in power, and so help craft so many of the narratives we've all bought into over the years, to the detriment of ourselves and others. Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.11pm) Good post, BlueJay.
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Lombardinho

London 12 Aug 21 11.29pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.11pm)

Good post, BlueJay.

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Stirlingsays 12 Aug 21 11.32pm
Originally posted by Lombardinho I agree with you in that it would be a tough one to pull off. Where we differ is I think they actually DID pull it off! With a little help from all their "friends" including, of course, the media. It doesn't make sense. If you wanted a war in the middle east there are far easier....and more importantly far less risky ways. Over twenty years of Wikileaks and nothing. The domestic attack doesn't hold true for me and all I ever found for it was speculation. For example, one of the contentions is that building 7 was destroyed because it held sensitive information by intelligence agencies......But what's so hard about taking a hammer to a hard drive? If you want to get rid of data on computerised system that isn't copied then you can remove that physical storage and destroy it. As a computing teacher I can tell you there are far easier methods than knocking buildings down. But as always, if there is any compelling information available that alters this view, I will always listen to it. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Aug 2021 11.35pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Aug 21 11.32pm

Originally posted by Lombardinho

I agree with you in that it would be a tough one to pull off.
Where we differ is I think they actually DID pull it off!
With a little help from all their "friends" including, of course, the media.

It doesn't make sense.

If you wanted a war in the middle east there are far easier....and more importantly far less risky ways.

Over twenty years of Wikileaks and nothing.

The domestic attack doesn't hold true for me and all I ever found for it was speculation.

For example, one of the contentions is that building 7 was destroyed because it held sensitive information by intelligence agencies......But what's so hard about taking a hammer to a hard drive? If you want to get rid of data on computerised system that isn't copied then you can remove that physical storage and destroy it. As a computing teacher I can tell you there are far easier methods than knocking buildings down.

But as always, if there is any compelling information available that alters this view, I will always listen to it.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Aug 2021 11.35pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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BlueJay UK 12 Aug 21 11.35pm
Originally posted by Lombardinho Good post, BlueJay. Cheers pal!
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BlueJay

UK 12 Aug 21 11.35pm

Originally posted by Lombardinho

Good post, BlueJay.

Cheers pal!

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Lombardinho London 12 Aug 21 11.35pm
Originally posted by cryrst The lift shafts were not solid poured concrete. They were block work. This also contributed to the collapse as these cores are a major player in a buildings strength. If you watch a building going up these are generally the first structures. With respect I beleive this wasn't an inside job and a genuine terror attack. Fair do's, cryrst. I didn't know that about the concrete or lack of it. But it's the government departments contained within Building 7 that push me towards smelling a rat.
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Lombardinho

London 12 Aug 21 11.35pm

Originally posted by cryrst

Fair do's, cryrst.
I didn't know that about the concrete or lack of it.
But it's the government departments contained within Building 7 that push me towards smelling a rat.

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Stirlingsays 12 Aug 21 11.43pm
Originally posted by BlueJay I'll sound a little conspiracy minded myself, but I certainly do think that the military industrial complex is very real, and that there are conveyor belts that are far from eager to slow. Maybe world events have thrown a spanner in these particular works but there are certainly huge industries interested in endless war come what may, and the rights and wrongs of any conflict are infinity less relevant to them than their bottom line and keeping the wheels turning. As the middle east has often been on the receiving end (and our repeated 'mission accomplished' is always anything but) I really don't see that we've ever helped them our ourselves, simply put trillions into pockets of those who have no real interest inhumanity, or allegiance beyond their own bank balance and ability to influence. They have the ear, and often the twisted arm of those in power, and so help craft so many of the narratives we've all bought into over the years, to the detriment of ourselves and others. Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.11pm) I'd agree that the 'military industrial complex', is a label that constitutes a mindset within powerful positions that isn't a neutral entity on the world stage.....in other words it isn't just about money and corporations. The wars it's interested follow the interests of the big money funders within the system.....when you look at what the politicians say it's in the interests of who funds them. If we look at who these wars have been against, and who the US sets itself up against as either friend or enemy in that region....it follows a distinct pattern and is in the interests of one particular middle eastern country that certainly has very powerful representation in America. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Aug 21 11.43pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.11pm)

I'd agree that the 'military industrial complex', is a label that constitutes a mindset within powerful positions that isn't a neutral entity on the world stage.....in other words it isn't just about money and corporations.

The wars it's interested follow the interests of the big money funders within the system.....when you look at what the politicians say it's in the interests of who funds them.

If we look at who these wars have been against, and who the US sets itself up against as either friend or enemy in that region....it follows a distinct pattern and is in the interests of one particular middle eastern country that certainly has very powerful representation in America.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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BlueJay UK 12 Aug 21 11.55pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I'd agree that the 'military industrial complex', is a label that constitutes a mindset within powerful positions that isn't a neutral entity on the world stage.....in other words it isn't just about money and corporations. The wars it's interested follow the interests of the big money funders within the system.....when you look at what the politicians say it's in the interests of who funds them. If we look at who these wars have been against, and who the US sets itself up against as either friend or enemy in that region....it follows a distinct pattern and is in the interests of one particular middle eastern country that certainly has very powerful representation in America. Certainly. What's most concerning is that politicians are remarkably easy to get on board by way of 'donations', and I expect a significant number are also compromised (which in part speaks to the level of influence that Israel manages to wield - even though there are other factors of course). The system itself elevates those who are corrupt and compromised because they are useful and a way into influencing decisions where a couple of votes one way or another can make a major difference. Anyone with integrity in politics I expect is either spat out, or will gradually inadvertently make enough small compromises to get things done, that they eventually get absorbed into the same broken system. Broken in terms of us I mean, I'm sure it works great for them . Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.57pm)
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BlueJay

UK 12 Aug 21 11.55pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The wars it's interested follow the interests of the big money funders within the system.....when you look at what the politicians say it's in the interests of who funds them.

If we look at who these wars have been against, and who the US sets itself up against as either friend or enemy in that region....it follows a distinct pattern and is in the interests of one particular middle eastern country that certainly has very powerful representation in America.

Certainly. What's most concerning is that politicians are remarkably easy to get on board by way of 'donations', and I expect a significant number are also compromised (which in part speaks to the level of influence that Israel manages to wield - even though there are other factors of course). The system itself elevates those who are corrupt and compromised because they are useful and a way into influencing decisions where a couple of votes one way or another can make a major difference. Anyone with integrity in politics I expect is either spat out, or will gradually inadvertently make enough small compromises to get things done, that they eventually get absorbed into the same broken system. Broken in terms of us I mean, I'm sure it works great for them .

Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.57pm)

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Stirlingsays 13 Aug 21 12.56am
Originally posted by BlueJay Certainly. What's most concerning is that politicians are remarkably easy to get on board by way of 'donations', and I expect a significant number are also compromised (which in part speaks to the level of influence that Israel manages to wield - even though there are other factors of course). The system itself elevates those who are corrupt and compromised because they are useful and a way into influencing decisions where a couple of votes one way or another can make a major difference. Anyone with integrity in politics I expect is either spat out, or will gradually inadvertently make enough small compromises to get things done, that they eventually get absorbed into the same broken system. Broken in terms of us I mean, I'm sure it works great for them . Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.57pm) I couldn't have put it better myself. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Aug 21 12.56am

Originally posted by BlueJay

Edited by BlueJay (12 Aug 2021 11.57pm)

I couldn't have put it better myself.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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