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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 19 Jan 16 12.29pm

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All of this nonsense in the currant buns front page.
Most of the assertions were actually what Andrew Marr said, not Corbyn. He neither agreed nor disagreed with what Marr was saying. A set up hatchet job if ever I saw one.
His main point was finding a way to keep jobs in places like Barrow.


It appears that Corbyn is trying to come up with a 'solution' that placates Unite and his own disarmament ideology. Nothing wrong with that in principle.

However, the solution, which he appeared to support on Marr, and has been collaborated in the papers which suggest the Labour spin masters have been supporting the idea, is a giant, expensive fudge, one which if Cameron had proposed, you would be critiscisimg to the hilt.

This is a classic clash of interests. A politician having to compromise principles because his paymasters disagree with his principles. I would actually have some respect for Corbyn if he said, no trident under any circumstances. However, he has opened up in my mind that that his principles are for sale. Something he appeared to be against from the start, with his 'new politics', and if I was a Labour or Corbyn supporter, I would be concerned at this development.

Edited by matt_himself (18 Jan 2016 3.23pm)

FYI tis corroborated.

See even after I've left the classroom I can learn people things.

You will spin anti Corbyn, even if he saved your mother from a house fire.


Rabid right wingers opposing Corbyn's plan:

[Link]

Rather than attacking the man (remember when the argument is lost, slander is the tool of the loser, or something), you could try and rebuff what I said.

Edited by matt_himself (18 Jan 2016 3.53pm)

1. Telling you the correct term is not attacking you. If I wanted I could have said nothing and let you carry on using the wrong term, so in fact I'm doing the opposite.
2. Has Corbyn definitely said trident subs won't have nukes? He said is was a possibility.
He's trying to placate those that would lose jobs if trident with nuclear wasn't an option. There are other types of non nuclear missiles that could be used instead.

Edited by nickgusset (18 Jan 2016 4.17pm)

You haven't answered my key point above. What is point of creating something costly that is useless because it placates the unions? I maintain that if Osbourne proposed something similar, you would be up in arms.

And given Corbyn's remarks yesterday that Trident doesn't deter the threats to Britain, he sited 9/11 as an example how would a non-nuclear trident deter threats, such as 9/11, to Britain?

I can see why the unions are concerned that thousands of jobs are at risk if trident doesn't get the go ahead. Fact is though, we'd spend loads of money on something that on the face of it, we won't have much control over anyway.

In some respects, and answering yourpoint in creating something useless, that's basic Keynesian economics. if it's employment we're worried about - as employment = wages = spending = good for the economy, then perhaps we'd be better off using the keynesian model of burying a s*** load of money deep deep underground so that people are paid to dig the money out.

Trident is more than just the deterrent conundrum, it's not that simple. Sure I've read about drone subs that would be able to hunt down trident subs anyway.

I personally think that we'd be better off investing the billions in ways to confront non nuclear threats such as ISIS for instance. Also those billions couldbe spent in a lot of other useful ways.

Would nuclear capability stop ISIS? I doubt it. How did USA's nuclear deterrent stop the 9/11 attacks?

Edited by nickgusset (18 Jan 2016 8.33pm)


Correct me for misunderstanding but weren't you anti-military action on ISIS? Wasn't confronting ISIS, as recently as weeks ago, 'inciting', the problem? Wasn't 'dialogue' e answer?

Now you appear to be condoning action on ISIS.

Which is it?

Didn't say military actions - you are imagining things. Money could be spent on home security.

No I am not. You are supporting Corbyn's policy of replacing trident with convention warheads and saying in turn that we need to confront iSIS. Seems to me that this policy you support doesn't add up.


Not supporting, saying it's an option in order to keep jobs.

We do need to deal with ISIS, not with missiles though.


So you are supporting the spending of billions on something that is useless to preserve jobs and placate the unions (Labours paymasters)?

I'd actually set up manufacture of something different to preserve jobs. For instance the latest generation of solar and wind power is a lot more cost effective and efficient. Imagine the savings if we could roll out solar panels for all new housing .

Edited by nickgusset (19 Jan 2016 11.29am)

Do you support or not Corbyn's plans to build a useless missile system for the sole purpose of retaining jobs?

Very simple question.


They are not his plans yet. He said they are looking into all possibilities.
How is the system useless?
If it is useless, then I don't support.
What I do support is Corbyn's plans to do his best to ensure employment continues for those workers affected.

There is an argument that renewing trident is a useless idea. Do you support renewing trident considering it's probably going to be ineffectual?


Edited by nickgusset (19 Jan 2016 12.30pm)

 

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Stuk Flag Top half 19 Jan 16 3.08pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 11.25am

Quote matt_himself at 19 Jan 2016 10.28am

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 9.13am

Quote matt_himself at 19 Jan 2016 4.16am

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 9.46pm

Quote matt_himself at 18 Jan 2016 9.27pm

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 8.26pm

Quote matt_himself at 18 Jan 2016 4.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 4.14pm

Quote matt_himself at 18 Jan 2016 3.53pm

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 3.45pm

Quote matt_himself at 18 Jan 2016 3.22pm

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 11.38am

All of this nonsense in the currant buns front page.
Most of the assertions were actually what Andrew Marr said, not Corbyn. He neither agreed nor disagreed with what Marr was saying. A set up hatchet job if ever I saw one.
His main point was finding a way to keep jobs in places like Barrow.


It appears that Corbyn is trying to come up with a 'solution' that placates Unite and his own disarmament ideology. Nothing wrong with that in principle.

However, the solution, which he appeared to support on Marr, and has been collaborated in the papers which suggest the Labour spin masters have been supporting the idea, is a giant, expensive fudge, one which if Cameron had proposed, you would be critiscisimg to the hilt.

This is a classic clash of interests. A politician having to compromise principles because his paymasters disagree with his principles. I would actually have some respect for Corbyn if he said, no trident under any circumstances. However, he has opened up in my mind that that his principles are for sale. Something he appeared to be against from the start, with his 'new politics', and if I was a Labour or Corbyn supporter, I would be concerned at this development.

Edited by matt_himself (18 Jan 2016 3.23pm)

FYI tis corroborated.

See even after I've left the classroom I can learn people things.

You will spin anti Corbyn, even if he saved your mother from a house fire.


Rabid right wingers opposing Corbyn's plan:

[Link]

Rather than attacking the man (remember when the argument is lost, slander is the tool of the loser, or something), you could try and rebuff what I said.

Edited by matt_himself (18 Jan 2016 3.53pm)

1. Telling you the correct term is not attacking you. If I wanted I could have said nothing and let you carry on using the wrong term, so in fact I'm doing the opposite.
2. Has Corbyn definitely said trident subs won't have nukes? He said is was a possibility.
He's trying to placate those that would lose jobs if trident with nuclear wasn't an option. There are other types of non nuclear missiles that could be used instead.

Edited by nickgusset (18 Jan 2016 4.17pm)

You haven't answered my key point above. What is point of creating something costly that is useless because it placates the unions? I maintain that if Osbourne proposed something similar, you would be up in arms.

And given Corbyn's remarks yesterday that Trident doesn't deter the threats to Britain, he sited 9/11 as an example how would a non-nuclear trident deter threats, such as 9/11, to Britain?

I can see why the unions are concerned that thousands of jobs are at risk if trident doesn't get the go ahead. Fact is though, we'd spend loads of money on something that on the face of it, we won't have much control over anyway.

In some respects, and answering yourpoint in creating something useless, that's basic Keynesian economics. if it's employment we're worried about - as employment = wages = spending = good for the economy, then perhaps we'd be better off using the keynesian model of burying a s*** load of money deep deep underground so that people are paid to dig the money out.

Trident is more than just the deterrent conundrum, it's not that simple. Sure I've read about drone subs that would be able to hunt down trident subs anyway.

I personally think that we'd be better off investing the billions in ways to confront non nuclear threats such as ISIS for instance. Also those billions couldbe spent in a lot of other useful ways.

Would nuclear capability stop ISIS? I doubt it. How did USA's nuclear deterrent stop the 9/11 attacks?

Edited by nickgusset (18 Jan 2016 8.33pm)


Correct me for misunderstanding but weren't you anti-military action on ISIS? Wasn't confronting ISIS, as recently as weeks ago, 'inciting', the problem? Wasn't 'dialogue' e answer?

Now you appear to be condoning action on ISIS.

Which is it?

Didn't say military actions - you are imagining things. Money could be spent on home security.

No I am not. You are supporting Corbyn's policy of replacing trident with convention warheads and saying in turn that we need to confront iSIS. Seems to me that this policy you support doesn't add up.


Not supporting, saying it's an option in order to keep jobs.

We do need to deal with ISIS, not with missiles though.


So you are supporting the spending of billions on something that is useless to preserve jobs and placate the unions (Labours paymasters)?

I'd actually set up manufacture of something different to preserve jobs. For instance the latest generation of solar and wind power is a lot more cost effective and efficient. Imagine the savings if we could roll out solar panels for all new housing .

Edited by nickgusset (19 Jan 2016 11.29am)

Solar panels are pretty useless. A whole house would cost between £8K and £16K to do and only save you about £70-100 per year on your electricity bill.

Even if every single house in the UK was covered with them it'd achieve less than 20% of the energy required.

 


Optimistic as ever

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 19 Jan 16 3.48pm

Quote Stuk at 19 Jan 2016 3.08pm

Solar panels are pretty useless. A whole house would cost between £8K and £16K to do and only save you about £70-100 per year on your electricity bill.

Even if every single house in the UK was covered with them it'd achieve less than 20% of the energy required.


At present, but like most things, the more produced the cheaper it becomes.

How many houses are there in the uk? Even at 15% of energy reqd, it's still a lot when extrapolated nationally

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 19 Jan 16 4.19pm

Quote Stuk at 19 Jan 2016 3.08pm
Solar panels are pretty useless. A whole house would cost between £8K and £16K to do and only save you about £70-100 per year on your electricity bill.

Even if every single house in the UK was covered with them it'd achieve less than 20% of the energy required.

Problem is that ultimately the UK will need to find an alternative to fossil fuels reliance at some point if only ecologically speaking. Gas, coal and oil come with a lot of political costs, environmental costs and long term sustainability costs, that will just increase over time.

Oil and coal essentially drove the growth of world populations in the 20th century (and before), but they are a finite resource and the future of the UK cannot be based on 'just more of the same'; problem is solar power isn't a solution and most green alternatives are costly, for low output.

For the UK (and the world) to become sustainable on solar energy, would require a very significant drop in the human population of the world (simply because the amount of space you'd need to dedicate to solar energy production).

Fortunately, my investment in future generations is zero.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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We are goin up! Flag Coulsdon 19 Jan 16 4.25pm Send a Private Message to We are goin up! Add We are goin up! as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 3.48pm

Quote Stuk at 19 Jan 2016 3.08pm

Solar panels are pretty useless. A whole house would cost between £8K and £16K to do and only save you about £70-100 per year on your electricity bill.

Even if every single house in the UK was covered with them it'd achieve less than 20% of the energy required.


At present, but like most things, the more produced the cheaper it becomes.

How many houses are there in the uk? Even at 15% of energy reqd, it's still a lot when extrapolated nationally


This might be a really dumb comment, but surely in large swaithes of the country solar panels are going to pretty useless since they rely on hours of sunlight.

 


The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 19 Jan 16 4.30pm

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 12.29pm
They are not his plans yet. He said they are looking into all possibilities.
How is the system useless?
If it is useless, then I don't support.
What I do support is Corbyn's plans to do his best to ensure employment continues for those workers affected.

There is an argument that renewing trident is a useless idea. Do you support renewing trident considering it's probably going to be ineffectual?


Edited by nickgusset (19 Jan 2016 12.30pm)

The US does use non-nuclear armed missile submarines. The Nuclear Astute class submarines, currently rolling out to replace the old diesel electric submarines, carry torpedoes and cruise missiles. This essentially renders a non-nuclear carrying Trident solution irrelevant (they also can carry twice the weapon load of the Trident submarines).

The only reason to renew Trident is as a nuclear weapons system.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Quote this post in a reply
matt_himself Flag Matataland 19 Jan 16 4.32pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 12.29pm

Quote matt_himself at 19 Jan 2016 12.23pm

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 11.25am

Quote matt_himself at 19 Jan 2016 10.28am

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 9.13am

Quote matt_himself at 19 Jan 2016 4.16am

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 9.46pm

Quote matt_himself at 18 Jan 2016 9.27pm

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 8.26pm

Quote matt_himself at 18 Jan 2016 4.47pm

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 4.14pm

Quote matt_himself at 18 Jan 2016 3.53pm

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 3.45pm

Quote matt_himself at 18 Jan 2016 3.22pm

Quote nickgusset at 18 Jan 2016 11.38am

All of this nonsense in the currant buns front page.
Most of the assertions were actually what Andrew Marr said, not Corbyn. He neither agreed nor disagreed with what Marr was saying. A set up hatchet job if ever I saw one.
His main point was finding a way to keep jobs in places like Barrow.


It appears that Corbyn is trying to come up with a 'solution' that placates Unite and his own disarmament ideology. Nothing wrong with that in principle.

However, the solution, which he appeared to support on Marr, and has been collaborated in the papers which suggest the Labour spin masters have been supporting the idea, is a giant, expensive fudge, one which if Cameron had proposed, you would be critiscisimg to the hilt.

This is a classic clash of interests. A politician having to compromise principles because his paymasters disagree with his principles. I would actually have some respect for Corbyn if he said, no trident under any circumstances. However, he has opened up in my mind that that his principles are for sale. Something he appeared to be against from the start, with his 'new politics', and if I was a Labour or Corbyn supporter, I would be concerned at this development.

Edited by matt_himself (18 Jan 2016 3.23pm)

FYI tis corroborated.

See even after I've left the classroom I can learn people things.

You will spin anti Corbyn, even if he saved your mother from a house fire.


Rabid right wingers opposing Corbyn's plan:

[Link]

Rather than attacking the man (remember when the argument is lost, slander is the tool of the loser, or something), you could try and rebuff what I said.

Edited by matt_himself (18 Jan 2016 3.53pm)

1. Telling you the correct term is not attacking you. If I wanted I could have said nothing and let you carry on using the wrong term, so in fact I'm doing the opposite.
2. Has Corbyn definitely said trident subs won't have nukes? He said is was a possibility.
He's trying to placate those that would lose jobs if trident with nuclear wasn't an option. There are other types of non nuclear missiles that could be used instead.

Edited by nickgusset (18 Jan 2016 4.17pm)

You haven't answered my key point above. What is point of creating something costly that is useless because it placates the unions? I maintain that if Osbourne proposed something similar, you would be up in arms.

And given Corbyn's remarks yesterday that Trident doesn't deter the threats to Britain, he sited 9/11 as an example how would a non-nuclear trident deter threats, such as 9/11, to Britain?

I can see why the unions are concerned that thousands of jobs are at risk if trident doesn't get the go ahead. Fact is though, we'd spend loads of money on something that on the face of it, we won't have much control over anyway.

In some respects, and answering yourpoint in creating something useless, that's basic Keynesian economics. if it's employment we're worried about - as employment = wages = spending = good for the economy, then perhaps we'd be better off using the keynesian model of burying a s*** load of money deep deep underground so that people are paid to dig the money out.

Trident is more than just the deterrent conundrum, it's not that simple. Sure I've read about drone subs that would be able to hunt down trident subs anyway.

I personally think that we'd be better off investing the billions in ways to confront non nuclear threats such as ISIS for instance. Also those billions couldbe spent in a lot of other useful ways.

Would nuclear capability stop ISIS? I doubt it. How did USA's nuclear deterrent stop the 9/11 attacks?

Edited by nickgusset (18 Jan 2016 8.33pm)


Correct me for misunderstanding but weren't you anti-military action on ISIS? Wasn't confronting ISIS, as recently as weeks ago, 'inciting', the problem? Wasn't 'dialogue' e answer?

Now you appear to be condoning action on ISIS.

Which is it?

Didn't say military actions - you are imagining things. Money could be spent on home security.

No I am not. You are supporting Corbyn's policy of replacing trident with convention warheads and saying in turn that we need to confront iSIS. Seems to me that this policy you support doesn't add up.


Not supporting, saying it's an option in order to keep jobs.

We do need to deal with ISIS, not with missiles though.


So you are supporting the spending of billions on something that is useless to preserve jobs and placate the unions (Labours paymasters)?

I'd actually set up manufacture of something different to preserve jobs. For instance the latest generation of solar and wind power is a lot more cost effective and efficient. Imagine the savings if we could roll out solar panels for all new housing .

Edited by nickgusset (19 Jan 2016 11.29am)

Do you support or not Corbyn's plans to build a useless missile system for the sole purpose of retaining jobs?

Very simple question.


They are not his plans yet. He said they are looking into all possibilities.
How is the system useless?
If it is useless, then I don't support.
What I do support is Corbyn's plans to do his best to ensure employment continues for those workers affected.

There is an argument that renewing trident is a useless idea. Do you support renewing trident considering it's probably going to be ineffectual?


Edited by nickgusset (19 Jan 2016 12.30pm)


There are many governmental and independent reviews which state that Trident is the best nuclear deterrent option available to the UK and appears to be very effective in a number of situations and for a number of targets.

Where did you get your 'evidence' that Trident is ineffectual?

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 19 Jan 16 4.33pm

Quote We are goin up! at 19 Jan 2016 4.25pm

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 3.48pm

Quote Stuk at 19 Jan 2016 3.08pm

Solar panels are pretty useless. A whole house would cost between £8K and £16K to do and only save you about £70-100 per year on your electricity bill.

Even if every single house in the UK was covered with them it'd achieve less than 20% of the energy required.


At present, but like most things, the more produced the cheaper it becomes.

How many houses are there in the uk? Even at 15% of energy reqd, it's still a lot when extrapolated nationally


This might be a really dumb comment, but surely in large swaithes of the country solar panels are going to pretty useless since they rely on hours of sunlight.

In principle, they'd work like most power stations to generate energy that is then distributed as needed through the network. I'd imagine you'd essentially store converted solar energy within the system, much like a battery. The problem would be the sheer numbers of solar panels you'd need in the country to be self sufficient would themselves be an environmental catastrophe.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Quote this post in a reply
Stuk Flag Top half 19 Jan 16 4.42pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 3.48pm

Quote Stuk at 19 Jan 2016 3.08pm

Solar panels are pretty useless. A whole house would cost between £8K and £16K to do and only save you about £70-100 per year on your electricity bill.

Even if every single house in the UK was covered with them it'd achieve less than 20% of the energy required.


At present, but like most things, the more produced the cheaper it becomes.

How many houses are there in the uk? Even at 15% of energy reqd, it's still a lot when extrapolated nationally

At present and in the past, it's not getting cheaper or more efficient to install/have Solar (and that's when they're subsidised). We simply don't have the climate to make either happen.

They also need renewing after roughly 35 years.

Solar is good for desert like climates.

 


Optimistic as ever

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 19 Jan 16 4.46pm

Quote matt_himself at 19 Jan 2016 4.32pm

There are many governmental and independent reviews which state that Trident is the best nuclear deterrent option available to the UK and appears to be very effective in a number of situations and for a number of targets.

Where did you get your 'evidence' that Trident is ineffectual?

Its the only option available to the UK. The UK lacks long range missile and solid fuel technologies suitable for intercontinental ballistic missiles, and developing that capacity and deploying it, would probably take longer than the life span of Trident solution.

With only three Trident submarines proposed, coverage is always going to be the problem. They'd need to change entirely how the submarine system is deployed and used, which ultimately would raise the question of why not simply use Astute class submarines with nuclear armed cruise missiles? Especially given that we could have gone down this route when replacing the Hunter Killer submarines (although this maybe down to the US not wanting to sell the UK Nuclear capable Cruise missiles, preferring to tie them into the Polaris system).


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 19 Jan 16 5.19pm

Quote Stuk at 19 Jan 2016 4.42pm

Quote nickgusset at 19 Jan 2016 3.48pm

Quote Stuk at 19 Jan 2016 3.08pm

Solar panels are pretty useless. A whole house would cost between £8K and £16K to do and only save you about £70-100 per year on your electricity bill.

Even if every single house in the UK was covered with them it'd achieve less than 20% of the energy required.


At present, but like most things, the more produced the cheaper it becomes.

How many houses are there in the uk? Even at 15% of energy reqd, it's still a lot when extrapolated nationally

At present and in the past, it's not getting cheaper or more efficient to install/have Solar (and that's when they're subsidised). We simply don't have the climate to make either happen.

They also need renewing after roughly 35 years.

Solar is good for desert like climates.


As part of the eu, we could invest in spanish solar farms.

As with everything, investment in r+d is crucial.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 19 Jan 16 5.29pm

Trident ...
I'd say investment in the (currently be underinvested) armed forces would be better towards making us safer against threats to our security. Proliferation would surely mean other countries would want to follow suit.
The more states that have them, the more certain it is they will be used. Britain can set an example by unilateral nuclear disarmament.
It takes a disproportionate share of the nation's defence budget.
We are more likely to be engaged in low-level warfare in which nuclear weapons are irrelevant. To meet the challenge of asymmetric warfare, such as in Iraq and Afghanistan, we should spend more on conventional forces and properly equip them.
Possession of nuclear weapons is an outmoded virility symbol. Countries like Spain, Canada and Australia do without them and have as much global influence as Britain.


Edited by nickgusset (19 Jan 2016 5.45pm)

 

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