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ChrisGC Wantage 27 Jan 19 12.38pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Insults? Read your first paragraph! Claiming you are right and I am wrong because what you have said has been proven is the attitude of a 5 year old. Just because you have found a simple summary of the daily tasks of an MP, which seems to be just a guide for secondary school students or overseas visitors, means zilch and proves nothing in the context of the, albeit arcane, way that they need to reach their decisions as representatives and not as delegates. This seems to be too subtle for you to grasp which seems to be confirmed by your rather silly assertion that my link confirms your opinion. Which is why I recommended that you contact your own expert, your local MP! Maybe they can penetrate your prejudice. You imitate Trump again in your last accusation. Shouting I am right over and over again is precisely what you are doing. This is a regrettable development of the Trump era and many seem infected by it, whether by accident or design I don't know, but the sooner reason and a willingness to actually consider points, returns the better. MPs are NOT dictators and I have never suggested they are. They are the representatives of their constituents best interests. All their constituents and not one section of them. Their job is to use their own judgement to decide what those interests are. If therefore it is their conviction that their constituents would be best served by taking decisions that some would not approve of then their duty is to take such decisions. You want them to be delegates and cannot accept that what you have got are representatives. Stating a fact isn't an insult. Back on point: Please explain why you think an MP's job is that of a dictator, and not as a representative of their constituents, as your own link States in summary.
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ChrisGC

Wantage 27 Jan 19 12.38pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Insults? Read your first paragraph!

Claiming you are right and I am wrong because what you have said has been proven is the attitude of a 5 year old. Just because you have found a simple summary of the daily tasks of an MP, which seems to be just a guide for secondary school students or overseas visitors, means zilch and proves nothing in the context of the, albeit arcane, way that they need to reach their decisions as representatives and not as delegates. This seems to be too subtle for you to grasp which seems to be confirmed by your rather silly assertion that my link confirms your opinion. Which is why I recommended that you contact your own expert, your local MP! Maybe they can penetrate your prejudice.

You imitate Trump again in your last accusation. Shouting I am right over and over again is precisely what you are doing. This is a regrettable development of the Trump era and many seem infected by it, whether by accident or design I don't know, but the sooner reason and a willingness to actually consider points, returns the better.

MPs are NOT dictators and I have never suggested they are. They are the representatives of their constituents best interests. All their constituents and not one section of them. Their job is to use their own judgement to decide what those interests are. If therefore it is their conviction that their constituents would be best served by taking decisions that some would not approve of then their duty is to take such decisions.

You want them to be delegates and cannot accept that what you have got are representatives.

Stating a fact isn't an insult.

Back on point:

Please explain why you think an MP's job is that of a dictator, and not as a representative of their constituents, as your own link States in summary.

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ChrisGC Wantage 27 Jan 19 12.40pm
Originally posted by Pussay Patrol As I said to someone else that is not a correct analogy Buying a car you have the freedom of choice to simply go elsewhere without any consequences It's a negotiation between 2 parties and 2 parties only So we don't have the option to go elsewhere with our trade arrangements? Last time I checked, Canada, India, Australia and the combined continents of the Americas weren't in the EU.
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ChrisGC

Wantage 27 Jan 19 12.40pm

Originally posted by Pussay Patrol

As I said to someone else that is not a correct analogy

Buying a car you have the freedom of choice to simply go elsewhere without any consequences

It's a negotiation between 2 parties and 2 parties only

So we don't have the option to go elsewhere with our trade arrangements?

Last time I checked, Canada, India, Australia and the combined continents of the Americas weren't in the EU.

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ChrisGC Wantage 27 Jan 19 12.46pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle If you believe that then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Most leavers, in my opinion, and supported by every analysis I have read, voted primarily because of a desire to control immigration. They had no real idea of the economic impact and saw the various claims on both sides as politicking. In my view the current projections, even from informed leavers, of the economic impact is understated. Whilst some hardline Euro-sceptics voted to leave because of their convictions, whatever the economic consequences (some of those would actually have benefitted), most leaver voters would not and, if they had really understood, would not have so voted. Which I guess is why the hardliners are digging in now, because they know the tide has turned. Which projections are these? Economic projections are predicated on the fundamental principle of "everything else remains the same". Nothing remains the same. Everything changes. No projection can be considered viable. None of the powerhouses or official bodies are making them! It's all unofficial conjecture. Cark Marney opened his trap for reasons known to himself alone to make an I'll judged personal prediction and showed how poorly qualified for the position he is.
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ChrisGC

Wantage 27 Jan 19 12.46pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

If you believe that then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Most leavers, in my opinion, and supported by every analysis I have read, voted primarily because of a desire to control immigration. They had no real idea of the economic impact and saw the various claims on both sides as politicking.

In my view the current projections, even from informed leavers, of the economic impact is understated. Whilst some hardline Euro-sceptics voted to leave because of their convictions, whatever the economic consequences (some of those would actually have benefitted), most leaver voters would not and, if they had really understood, would not have so voted.

Which I guess is why the hardliners are digging in now, because they know the tide has turned.

Which projections are these?

Economic projections are predicated on the fundamental principle of "everything else remains the same".

Nothing remains the same. Everything changes. No projection can be considered viable. None of the powerhouses or official bodies are making them! It's all unofficial conjecture.

Cark Marney opened his trap for reasons known to himself alone to make an I'll judged personal prediction and showed how poorly qualified for the position he is.

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ChrisGC Wantage 27 Jan 19 1.09pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I have done enough negotiations to understand the "who blinks first tactic". In something as important as this it is though a big risk and one none of us amateurs can really evaluate. We are just interested observers. It really isn't just a question of "walking away" if the price isn't right. It is much, much more complex than that with many political and economic consequences. Lives are potentially at risk in Ireland. You no more voted for no deal than I did! No-one at all knew the detail in 2016 or that we would get to this point with such stark disagreements. When were the difficulties in Ireland ever debated during the referendum? All I remember were the slurs about "Project Fear". Looking back it seems to me that people did not take those fears nearly seriously enough given what is now happening. The line of "you didn't know what you were voting for" must be dropped. We all did, remainders had the same ability to make an informed choice as the rest of us, the information to do so being in the public domain. Negotiating a deal to stay was inconceivable, there is no obligation to entertain it. Please stick to the prescribed legal text on the matter. Article 50 has been invoked, the steps to leaving orderly and timely are there to be followed. As for Ireland: Ireland's official position: the boarder is not an issue. The UK's official position: the boarder is not an issue. The EU's official position: the boarder is not an issue. The remain media: good Friday is coming to an end and there's going to be all out war. And it was leavers who were lied to...
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ChrisGC

Wantage 27 Jan 19 1.09pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I have done enough negotiations to understand the "who blinks first tactic". In something as important as this it is though a big risk and one none of us amateurs can really evaluate. We are just interested observers.

It really isn't just a question of "walking away" if the price isn't right. It is much, much more complex than that with many political and economic consequences. Lives are potentially at risk in Ireland.

You no more voted for no deal than I did! No-one at all knew the detail in 2016 or that we would get to this point with such stark disagreements. When were the difficulties in Ireland ever debated during the referendum? All I remember were the slurs about "Project Fear". Looking back it seems to me that people did not take those fears nearly seriously enough given what is now happening.

The line of "you didn't know what you were voting for" must be dropped. We all did, remainders had the same ability to make an informed choice as the rest of us, the information to do so being in the public domain.
Negotiating a deal to stay was inconceivable, there is no obligation to entertain it. Please stick to the prescribed legal text on the matter. Article 50 has been invoked, the steps to leaving orderly and timely are there to be followed.

As for Ireland: Ireland's official position: the boarder is not an issue. The UK's official position: the boarder is not an issue. The EU's official position: the boarder is not an issue.

The remain media: good Friday is coming to an end and there's going to be all out war.

And it was leavers who were lied to...

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Stirlingsays 27 Jan 19 2.07pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle You are another who sounds like Trump. Anything you don't agree with is a "lie" or "fake news". I see plenty of opportunities being given media exposure by all sides of the current debate. Would you prefer that only people like Farage and JRM were allowed to voice their opinions? Nope I believe that everybody should get a voice. You can lie all you like and I'll call it out for lying.....I won't try to stop you. You see I'm not far left.....it's your tribe who censor not mine. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Jan 19 2.07pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You are another who sounds like Trump. Anything you don't agree with is a "lie" or "fake news".

I see plenty of opportunities being given media exposure by all sides of the current debate.

Would you prefer that only people like Farage and JRM were allowed to voice their opinions?

Nope I believe that everybody should get a voice. You can lie all you like and I'll call it out for lying.....I won't try to stop you.

You see I'm not far left.....it's your tribe who censor not mine.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steve1984 27 Jan 19 2.09pm
Originally posted by Penge Eagle There is ZERO evidence people would be worse off! Do you have any? Or do you have a crystal ball? Well we could start with the 900 people who used to work here.. [Link]
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steve1984 27 Jan 19 2.09pm

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

There is ZERO evidence people would be worse off! Do you have any? Or do you have a crystal ball?

Well we could start with the 900 people who used to work here..

[Link]

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steve1984 27 Jan 19 2.15pm
Originally posted by ChrisGC If you were haggling over the price of a car and you said to the salesman " I absolutely will not leave without this car", what sort of a 'deal' would you get? Less good than you would if you said "if you don't give me a deal I'll go any buy one somewhere else." It works well as long as you can actually find one somewhere of equivalent value. But if you can't... You need to learn how to negotiate with a monopoly supplier. Threatening to walk away isn't going to get you anywhere. None of the markets you propose as alternatives to the EU are suitable substitutes.
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steve1984 27 Jan 19 2.15pm

Originally posted by ChrisGC

If you were haggling over the price of a car and you said to the salesman " I absolutely will not leave without this car", what sort of a 'deal' would you get?

Less good than you would if you said "if you don't give me a deal I'll go any buy one somewhere else."

It works well as long as you can actually find one somewhere of equivalent value. But if you can't...

You need to learn how to negotiate with a monopoly supplier. Threatening to walk away isn't going to get you anywhere.

None of the markets you propose as alternatives to the EU are suitable substitutes.

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ChrisGC Wantage 27 Jan 19 2.16pm
Originally posted by steve1984 Well we could start with the 900 people who used to work here.. [Link] A Reddit link to a guardian article on the EU medicines commission shifting HQ. The article suggests that 900 jobs will be moved, not lost. The quote says it's 'symbolic'. Did anyone actually lose their job? Difficult to tell from this propaganda. In any case, you do realise that this is s choice, made by your beloved EU and completely unnecessary? Seems a bit spiteful to me. Edited by ChrisGC (27 Jan 2019 2.17pm) Edited by ChrisGC (27 Jan 2019 2.23pm)
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ChrisGC

Wantage 27 Jan 19 2.16pm

Originally posted by steve1984

Well we could start with the 900 people who used to work here..

[Link]

A Reddit link to a guardian article on the EU medicines commission shifting HQ.

The article suggests that 900 jobs will be moved, not lost. The quote says it's 'symbolic'.

Did anyone actually lose their job?

Difficult to tell from this propaganda. In any case, you do realise that this is s choice, made by your beloved EU and completely unnecessary?

Seems a bit spiteful to me.

Edited by ChrisGC (27 Jan 2019 2.17pm)

Edited by ChrisGC (27 Jan 2019 2.23pm)

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cryrst The garden of England 27 Jan 19 2.20pm
Originally posted by ChrisGC So we don't have the option to go elsewhere with our trade arrangements? Last time I checked, Canada, India, Australia and the combined continents of the Americas weren't in the EU. Our trade with europe is more than the 15 highest trade deals outside of them added together.
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cryrst

The garden of England 27 Jan 19 2.20pm

Originally posted by ChrisGC

So we don't have the option to go elsewhere with our trade arrangements?

Last time I checked, Canada, India, Australia and the combined continents of the Americas weren't in the EU.

Our trade with europe is more than the 15 highest trade deals outside of them added together.

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Stirlingsays 27 Jan 19 2.23pm
Originally posted by cryrst Our trade with europe is more than the 15 highest trade deals outside of them added together. Well that wasn't always the case......and it won't be for much longer. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Jan 19 2.23pm

Originally posted by cryrst

Our trade with europe is more than the 15 highest trade deals outside of them added together.

Well that wasn't always the case......and it won't be for much longer.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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ChrisGC Wantage 27 Jan 19 2.29pm
Originally posted by cryrst Our trade with europe is more than the 15 highest trade deals outside of them added together. Not quite, don't confuse Europe with the EU, and the import side of that equation massively outweighs the exports. We make up 11% of Germany's entire economy. We either reciprocate tariffs or replace the partner if they want to ransom the logistics. There's nothing from the EU members we can't get elsewhere, in many cases cheaper and in every case on our own terms without having to look after 27 other mouths into the equation. Edited by ChrisGC (27 Jan 2019 2.44pm)
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ChrisGC

Wantage 27 Jan 19 2.29pm

Originally posted by cryrst

Our trade with europe is more than the 15 highest trade deals outside of them added together.

Not quite, don't confuse Europe with the EU, and the import side of that equation massively outweighs the exports. We make up 11% of Germany's entire economy.

We either reciprocate tariffs or replace the partner if they want to ransom the logistics.

There's nothing from the EU members we can't get elsewhere, in many cases cheaper and in every case on our own terms without having to look after 27 other mouths into the equation.

Edited by ChrisGC (27 Jan 2019 2.44pm)

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steve1984 27 Jan 19 2.37pm
Originally posted by ChrisGC The article suggests that 900 jobs will be moved, not lost. Yes moved to Amsterdam. You asked for evidence that we'll be worse off. Edited by steve1984 (27 Jan 2019 2.38pm)
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steve1984 27 Jan 19 2.37pm

Originally posted by ChrisGC

The article suggests that 900 jobs will be moved, not lost.

Yes moved to Amsterdam. You asked for evidence that we'll be worse off.

Edited by steve1984 (27 Jan 2019 2.38pm)

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