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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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The groover Danbury 13 Mar 22 10.25am
Originally posted by Badger11 Agreed. I have often wondered about why the fallout shelters are reserved for the politicians (all sides) I mean they failed to stop a nuclear war and have never done a proper job so what good are they for restoring civilization. Surely a war on that scale is a cataclysmic failure of leadership by all sides as the politicians are no bloody good. Perhaps if they were banned in advance from the shelters they might be motivated to stop the war before it got out of hand. Bunkers should be reserved for medical staff, engineers, sanitation workers, builders err you know people who can build and do useful stuff. The thought of Mayor Khan and Boris sitting it out in comfort.... I should be OK. I know where there is a secret nuclear bunker in Essex. It's sign posted!!!!!
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The groover

Danbury 13 Mar 22 10.25am

Originally posted by Badger11

Agreed.

I have often wondered about why the fallout shelters are reserved for the politicians (all sides) I mean they failed to stop a nuclear war and have never done a proper job so what good are they for restoring civilization.

Surely a war on that scale is a cataclysmic failure of leadership by all sides as the politicians are no bloody good. Perhaps if they were banned in advance from the shelters they might be motivated to stop the war before it got out of hand.

Bunkers should be reserved for medical staff, engineers, sanitation workers, builders err you know people who can build and do useful stuff.

The thought of Mayor Khan and Boris sitting it out in comfort....

I should be OK. I know where there is a secret nuclear bunker in Essex. It's sign posted!!!!!

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 10.25am
In the final analysis, stringent sanctions against oligarchs and the Russian economy are not going to result in Putin ceasing his butchery and barbarity in Ukraine. This despot will not suddenly cease his military operations because the USA,UK and EU have imposed severe sanctions on Russia. NATO have asserted that they have no desire to get involved in the conflict accordingly Putin will continue on the path of destruction.He cannot be seen to have failed. Unfortunately the only way this war can be ended is if the West compromises and does a deal with Putin which he can present as a victory and a justification for the invasion.We risk a severe escalation if a deal cannot be reached. Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.33am)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 10.25am

In the final analysis, stringent sanctions against oligarchs and the Russian economy are not going to result in Putin ceasing his butchery and barbarity in Ukraine.
This despot will not suddenly cease his military operations because the USA,UK and EU have imposed severe sanctions on Russia.

NATO have asserted that they have no desire to get involved in the conflict accordingly Putin will continue on the path of destruction.He cannot be seen to have failed.

Unfortunately the only way this war can be ended is if the West compromises and does a deal with Putin which he can present as a victory and a justification for the invasion.We risk a severe escalation if a deal cannot be reached.

Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.33am)

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Stirlingsays 13 Mar 22 10.36am
Originally posted by Willo In the final analysis, stringent sanctions against oligarchs and the Russian economy are not going to result in Putin ceasing his butchery and barbarity in Ukraine. This despot will not suddenly cease his military operations because the USA,UK and EU have imposed severe sanctions on Russia. NATO have asserted that they have no desire to get involved in the conflict accordingly Putin will continue on the path of destruction.He cannot be seen to have failed. Unfortunately the only way this war can be ended is if the West compromises and does a deal with Putin which he can present as a victory and a justification for the invasion.We risk a severe escalation if a deal cannot be reached. Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.33am) That's far too much like common sense to apparently satisfy the current zeitgeist. Oh what would the Ben Wallaces' of this world do with themselves. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Mar 22 10.36am

Originally posted by Willo

NATO have asserted that they have no desire to get involved in the conflict accordingly Putin will continue on the path of destruction.He cannot be seen to have failed.

Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.33am)

That's far too much like common sense to apparently satisfy the current zeitgeist.

Oh what would the Ben Wallaces' of this world do with themselves.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 10.47am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays That's far too much like common sense to apparently satisfy the current zeitgeist. Oh what would the Ben Wallaces' of this world do with themselves. What may I ask is the alternative ? Continue sanctioning, keep talking tough, which Putin will simply ignore and continue with his onslaught. He has already stated that vessels carrying arms to Ukraine are seen as legitimate targets and one suspects they will come under attack.Militarily he holds all the cards, knowing that NATO will not get involved and he can continue his barbarity unabated. Stringent sanctions and the severe effect on the Russian economy and way of life will not end this conflict. He has got himself in a hole and the west have to provide him with a way out that he can present as a victory. Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.53am)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 10.47am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

That's far too much like common sense to apparently satisfy the current zeitgeist.

Oh what would the Ben Wallaces' of this world do with themselves.

What may I ask is the alternative ?
Continue sanctioning, keep talking tough, which Putin will simply ignore and continue with his onslaught.
He has already stated that vessels carrying arms to Ukraine are seen as legitimate targets and one suspects they will come under attack.Militarily he holds all the cards, knowing that NATO will not get involved and he can continue his barbarity unabated.

Stringent sanctions and the severe effect on the Russian economy and way of life will not end this conflict.
He has got himself in a hole and the west have to provide him with a way out that he can present as a victory.

Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.53am)

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Badger11 Beckenham 13 Mar 22 11.05am
Originally posted by The groover I should be OK. I know where there is a secret nuclear bunker in Essex. It's sign posted!!!!! No room at the inn for the likes of us. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 13 Mar 22 11.05am

Originally posted by The groover

I should be OK. I know where there is a secret nuclear bunker in Essex. It's sign posted!!!!!

No room at the inn for the likes of us.

One more point

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kevlee born Wandsworth emigrated to Lanc... 13 Mar 22 11.07am
Originally posted by Willo In the final analysis, stringent sanctions against oligarchs and the Russian economy are not going to result in Putin ceasing his butchery and barbarity in Ukraine. This despot will not suddenly cease his military operations because the USA,UK and EU have imposed severe sanctions on Russia. NATO have asserted that they have no desire to get involved in the conflict accordingly Putin will continue on the path of destruction.He cannot be seen to have failed. Unfortunately the only way this war can be ended is if the West compromises and does a deal with Putin which he can present as a victory and a justification for the invasion.We risk a severe escalation if a deal cannot be reached. Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.33am) I think the word is appeasment. Give in to him basically. And he can then plan the next one. And who is going to pay for all the destruction Russia has caused to re-build what is left of the Ukraine? Us presumably?The EU/UK/USA? My view is that Putin has to stand down, withdraw, agree to pay reparations to the Ukrainians for all rebulding costs, and that must be at the top of any peace plan. Following Palace since 25 Feb 1978
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kevlee

born Wandsworth emigrated to Lanc... 13 Mar 22 11.07am

Originally posted by Willo

In the final analysis, stringent sanctions against oligarchs and the Russian economy are not going to result in Putin ceasing his butchery and barbarity in Ukraine.
This despot will not suddenly cease his military operations because the USA,UK and EU have imposed severe sanctions on Russia.

NATO have asserted that they have no desire to get involved in the conflict accordingly Putin will continue on the path of destruction.He cannot be seen to have failed.

Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.33am)

I think the word is appeasment. Give in to him basically. And he can then plan the next one.
And who is going to pay for all the destruction Russia has caused to re-build what is left of the Ukraine? Us presumably?The EU/UK/USA?
My view is that Putin has to stand down, withdraw, agree to pay reparations to the Ukrainians for all rebulding costs, and that must be at the top of any peace plan.

Following Palace since 25 Feb 1978

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Stirlingsays 13 Mar 22 11.07am
Originally posted by Willo What may I ask is the alternative ? Continue sanctioning, keep talking tough, which Putin will simply ignore and continue with his onslaught. He has already stated that vessels carrying arms to Ukraine are seen as legitimate targets and one suspects they will come under attack.Militarily he holds all the cards, knowing that NATO will not get involved and he can continue his barbarity unabated. Stringent sanctions and the severe effect on the Russian economy and way of life will not end this conflict. He has got himself in a hole and the west have to provide him with a way out that he can present as a victory. Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.53am) The best option for everyone is to bring this war to an end as quickly as possible. On one hand I respect the person who wants to continue to fight and is prepared to die for their country. On the other hand there are women and children dying and suffering every day this continues. I hope I'm wrong but...going by the media, I don't think our leaders are quite prepared to accept the unfortunate reality of the situation yet....not publicly anyway. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Mar 2022 11.10am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Mar 22 11.07am

Originally posted by Willo

Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.53am)

The best option for everyone is to bring this war to an end as quickly as possible. On one hand I respect the person who wants to continue to fight and is prepared to die for their country. On the other hand there are women and children dying and suffering every day this continues.

I hope I'm wrong but...going by the media, I don't think our leaders are quite prepared to accept the unfortunate reality of the situation yet....not publicly anyway.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Mar 2022 11.10am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 11.15am
Originally posted by kevlee I think the word is appeasment. Give in to him basically. And he can then plan the next one. And who is going to pay for all the destruction Russia has caused to re-build what is left of the Ukraine? Us presumably?The EU/UK/USA? My view is that Putin has to stand down, withdraw, agree to pay reparations to the Ukrainians for all rebulding costs, and that must be at the top of any peace plan. Such a 'Peace Plan' would be laughed at and totally rejected by Putin. Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 11.16am)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 11.15am

Originally posted by kevlee

I think the word is appeasment. Give in to him basically. And he can then plan the next one.
And who is going to pay for all the destruction Russia has caused to re-build what is left of the Ukraine? Us presumably?The EU/UK/USA?
My view is that Putin has to stand down, withdraw, agree to pay reparations to the Ukrainians for all rebulding costs, and that must be at the top of any peace plan.

Such a 'Peace Plan' would be laughed at and totally rejected by Putin.

Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 11.16am)

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Stirlingsays 13 Mar 22 11.16am
Originally posted by kevlee I think the word is appeasment. Give in to him basically. And he can then plan the next one. And who is going to pay for all the destruction Russia has caused to re-build what is left of the Ukraine? Us presumably?The EU/UK/USA? My view is that Putin has to stand down, withdraw, agree to pay reparations to the Ukrainians for all rebulding costs, and that must be at the top of any peace plan. Whether or not it's 'appeasement' depends upon the terms of the peace deal. We have already made it plain that an attack on a Nato country means we will fight and that nuclear war then becomes possible. I call that drawing a line. Your take means we have to go to war with Russia and defeat them. That is playing dice with everyone's life. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Mar 2022 11.16am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

13 Mar 22 11.16am

Originally posted by kevlee

Whether or not it's 'appeasement' depends upon the terms of the peace deal.

We have already made it plain that an attack on a Nato country means we will fight and that nuclear war then becomes possible. I call that drawing a line.

Your take means we have to go to war with Russia and defeat them.

That is playing dice with everyone's life.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Mar 2022 11.16am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 11.17am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Whether or not it's 'appeasement' depends upon the terms of the peace deal. We have already made it plain that an attack on a Nato country means we will fight and that nuclear war then becomes possible. I call that drawing a line. Your take means we have to go to war with Russia and defeat them. That is playing dice with everyone's life. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Mar 2022 11.16am) I concur with this comment.
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 11.17am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Whether or not it's 'appeasement' depends upon the terms of the peace deal.

We have already made it plain that an attack on a Nato country means we will fight and that nuclear war then becomes possible. I call that drawing a line.

Your take means we have to go to war with Russia and defeat them.

That is playing dice with everyone's life.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Mar 2022 11.16am)

I concur with this comment.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Mar 22 11.21am
Originally posted by Willo What may I ask is the alternative ? Continue sanctioning, keep talking tough, which Putin will simply ignore and continue with his onslaught. He has already stated that vessels carrying arms to Ukraine are seen as legitimate targets and one suspects they will come under attack.Militarily he holds all the cards, knowing that NATO will not get involved and he can continue his barbarity unabated. Stringent sanctions and the severe effect on the Russian economy and way of life will not end this conflict. He has got himself in a hole and the west have to provide him with a way out that he can present as a victory. Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.53am) We are between a rock and a hard place. Nato cannot get involved. Whilst we admire the resilience and fortitude of the Ukrainian people, the longer they resist, the worse, and more dangerous it will get for everyone. So it seems the best thing would be a swift end to the military resistance and a retreat into non-cooperation and guerilla war. Occupying Ukraine would present Putin with a whole new set of problems. Then the sanctions can do their work, taking a toll over time. The problem is that the Ukrainian's don't see it that way, and the Russian's appear incapable of anything other than brutal tactics of destruction. So it's likely to be a long-drawn-out process in which the whole of Ukraine gets laid to waste, with a humanitarian problem of epic proportions, energy and food shortages in Europe and Putin under increasing pressure in Russia. Can we trust a pressured Putin? Whether diplomacy can find a way through this quagmire is an open question, but so far the signs are not promising. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 13 Mar 22 11.21am

Originally posted by Willo

Edited by Willo (13 Mar 2022 10.53am)

We are between a rock and a hard place. Nato cannot get involved. Whilst we admire the resilience and fortitude of the Ukrainian people, the longer they resist, the worse, and more dangerous it will get for everyone. So it seems the best thing would be a swift end to the military resistance and a retreat into non-cooperation and guerilla war. Occupying Ukraine would present Putin with a whole new set of problems.

Then the sanctions can do their work, taking a toll over time.

The problem is that the Ukrainian's don't see it that way, and the Russian's appear incapable of anything other than brutal tactics of destruction. So it's likely to be a long-drawn-out process in which the whole of Ukraine gets laid to waste, with a humanitarian problem of epic proportions, energy and food shortages in Europe and Putin under increasing pressure in Russia. Can we trust a pressured Putin?

Whether diplomacy can find a way through this quagmire is an open question, but so far the signs are not promising.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 11.31am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle We are between a rock and a hard place. Nato cannot get involved. Whilst we admire the resilience and fortitude of the Ukrainian people, the longer they resist, the worse, and more dangerous it will get for everyone. So it seems the best thing would be a swift end to the military resistance and a retreat into non-cooperation and guerilla war. Occupying Ukraine would present Putin with a whole new set of problems. Then the sanctions can do their work, taking a toll over time. The problem is that the Ukrainian's don't see it that way, and the Russian's appear incapable of anything other than brutal tactics of destruction. So it's likely to be a long-drawn-out process in which the whole of Ukraine gets laid to waste, with a humanitarian problem of epic proportions, energy and food shortages in Europe and Putin under increasing pressure in Russia. Can we trust a pressured Putin? Whether diplomacy can find a way through this quagmire is an open question, but so far the signs are not promising. It really is all dependant on the content of the diplomatic talks and I for one never believed that diplomacy would bring about an immediate cessation of hostilities. The west simply have to prevent a drawn-out conflict with human suffering and a destroyed Ukraine, and uncomfortable compromises will have to be made to prevent further bloodshed.
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 13 Mar 22 11.31am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Then the sanctions can do their work, taking a toll over time.

Whether diplomacy can find a way through this quagmire is an open question, but so far the signs are not promising.

It really is all dependant on the content of the diplomatic talks and I for one never believed that diplomacy would bring about an immediate cessation of hostilities.

The west simply have to prevent a drawn-out conflict with human suffering and a destroyed Ukraine, and uncomfortable compromises will have to be made to prevent further bloodshed.

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