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Daz.CPFC Bromley 16 Jan 19 12.16pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle The first bit is correct. We do pay MPs to do a job! That job is to represent us and decide what it is we need and not to just give us what some want, no matter that those "some" happens to include many who formed, by a small margin, a majority in 2016. The second bit is incorrect. They didn't decide that the EU was "too difficult" for them. The Tories wanted to kill the endless squabbling from their eurosceptic wing, throttle the rise of UKIP and firmly establish the UK as an EU member. Parliament's mistake, led by Cameron, was to commit to respecting the result. May, no doubt for personally honourable reasons, has continued to make that mistake, alongside every politician who suggests that our democracy is threatened if we now fail to exit. In fact the absolute reverse is true. Our democracy is rooted solely in Parliament. Our job is only to decide who we choose to represent us. Referendums play no legal role in our democracy. If Parliament now decide that committing to respect a referendum was a mistake because of subsequent events (greater clarity of the consequences and the perception of a changed public opinion), then they have a democratic duty to correct that mistake. Should Brexit now be thrown out by Parliamentary action it would be a triumph for our democracy and not a failure of it. delusion PALACE TILL I DIE!!!
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Daz.CPFC

Bromley 16 Jan 19 12.16pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

The first bit is correct. We do pay MPs to do a job! That job is to represent us and decide what it is we need and not to just give us what some want, no matter that those "some" happens to include many who formed, by a small margin, a majority in 2016. The second bit is incorrect. They didn't decide that the EU was "too difficult" for them. The Tories wanted to kill the endless squabbling from their eurosceptic wing, throttle the rise of UKIP and firmly establish the UK as an EU member. Parliament's mistake, led by Cameron, was to commit to respecting the result. May, no doubt for personally honourable reasons, has continued to make that mistake, alongside every politician who suggests that our democracy is threatened if we now fail to exit. In fact the absolute reverse is true. Our democracy is rooted solely in Parliament. Our job is only to decide who we choose to represent us. Referendums play no legal role in our democracy. If Parliament now decide that committing to respect a referendum was a mistake because of subsequent events (greater clarity of the consequences and the perception of a changed public opinion), then they have a democratic duty to correct that mistake. Should Brexit now be thrown out by Parliamentary action it would be a triumph for our democracy and not a failure of it.

delusion

PALACE TILL I DIE!!!

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Hrolf The Ganger 16 Jan 19 12.21pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Any democratic vote can be overturned by another. It is not within the power of the government to deliver brexit. It can simply be overturned next time. Repeating the same crap does not make it any more credible. Having multiple referendums until you get the result you want is not democratic, it is deranged.
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Hrolf The Ganger

16 Jan 19 12.21pm

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Originally posted by steeleye20

Any democratic vote can be overturned by another.

It is not within the power of the government to deliver brexit.

It can simply be overturned next time.

Repeating the same crap does not make it any more credible.
Having multiple referendums until you get the result you want is not democratic, it is deranged.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 16 Jan 19 12.30pm
Originally posted by Badger11 Normally I would agree with your argument. We elect representatives and not delegates. However the moment that Parliament voted to allow a referendum they gave up that responsibility. Having done so its a bit rich that they are now trying to wrestle it back from the voters. On what basis did they "give it up"? Our democracy is not subject to variation simply because some wish it to be. Our MP's don't just have a right to act they have a duty to do so. Just remember what Harold Macmillan said when asked what politicians most feared. "Events, dear boy, events". They can choose not to do their duty but should they not do so that would be a huge failure of our trust in them. We have seen quite a few "events" since 2016 and our current leadership is showing far too much fear and not enough action. Those that suggest that if Parliament decides not to proceed with Brexit they will be breaking the trust of the people are wrong. If that is their collective will then it is their duty to act accordingly. Those that suggest that in so doing Parliament would unleash an almighty backlash are obviously correct because the myth that the Referendum was sacrosanct has been allowed to grow in the heads of the hardline Brexiteers. That myth needs to be debunked and shown to be inconsistent with our democracy, through quiet and persistent reasoning. Everyone can respect sincerely held views and that there is a sizable minority within the UK who feel we would be better off outside the EU. What cannot be accepted are threats that when our democratic system works that people refuse to accept it. Most Brexiteers would agree with that, but currently come to a totally different conclusion about what it means. So just pause and reflect on what our democratic system really is. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (16 Jan 2019 12.46pm) For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 16 Jan 19 12.30pm

Originally posted by Badger11

Normally I would agree with your argument. We elect representatives and not delegates.

However the moment that Parliament voted to allow a referendum they gave up that responsibility. Having done so its a bit rich that they are now trying to wrestle it back from the voters.

On what basis did they "give it up"? Our democracy is not subject to variation simply because some wish it to be. Our MP's don't just have a right to act they have a duty to do so. Just remember what Harold Macmillan said when asked what politicians most feared. "Events, dear boy, events". They can choose not to do their duty but should they not do so that would be a huge failure of our trust in them. We have seen quite a few "events" since 2016 and our current leadership is showing far too much fear and not enough action.

Those that suggest that if Parliament decides not to proceed with Brexit they will be breaking the trust of the people are wrong. If that is their collective will then it is their duty to act accordingly.

Those that suggest that in so doing Parliament would unleash an almighty backlash are obviously correct because the myth that the Referendum was sacrosanct has been allowed to grow in the heads of the hardline Brexiteers.

That myth needs to be debunked and shown to be inconsistent with our democracy, through quiet and persistent reasoning.

Everyone can respect sincerely held views and that there is a sizable minority within the UK who feel we would be better off outside the EU.

What cannot be accepted are threats that when our democratic system works that people refuse to accept it. Most Brexiteers would agree with that, but currently come to a totally different conclusion about what it means. So just pause and reflect on what our democratic system really is.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (16 Jan 2019 12.46pm)

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 16 Jan 19 1.03pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle On what basis did they "give it up"? Our democracy is not subject to variation simply because some wish it to be. Our MP's don't just have a right to act they have a duty to do so. Just remember what Harold Macmillan said when asked what politicians most feared. "Events, dear boy, events". They can choose not to do their duty but should they not do so that would be a huge failure of our trust in them. We have seen quite a few "events" since 2016 and our current leadership is showing far too much fear and not enough action. Those that suggest that if Parliament decides not to proceed with Brexit they will be breaking the trust of the people are wrong. If that is their collective will then it is their duty to act accordingly. Those that suggest that in so doing Parliament would unleash an almighty backlash are obviously correct because the myth that the Referendum was sacrosanct has been allowed to grow in the heads of the hardline Brexiteers. That myth needs to be debunked and shown to be inconsistent with our democracy, through quiet and persistent reasoning. Everyone can respect sincerely held views and that there is a sizable minority within the UK who feel we would be better off outside the EU. What cannot be accepted are threats that when our democratic system works that people refuse to accept it. Most Brexiteers would agree with that, but currently come to a totally different conclusion about what it means. So just pause and reflect on what our democratic system really is. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (16 Jan 2019 12.46pm) So 17.4 million people (52% of the turnout) is a "sizeable minority"? Edited by Cucking Funt (16 Jan 2019 1.04pm) Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 16 Jan 19 1.03pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That myth needs to be debunked and shown to be inconsistent with our democracy, through quiet and persistent reasoning.

Everyone can respect sincerely held views and that there is a sizable minority within the UK who feel we would be better off outside the EU.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (16 Jan 2019 12.46pm)

So 17.4 million people (52% of the turnout) is a "sizeable minority"?

Edited by Cucking Funt (16 Jan 2019 1.04pm)

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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Spiderman Horsham 16 Jan 19 1.05pm
Originally posted by Badger11 Which is why the group of MPs who want to pass a motion that NO deal is not an option are doing this country a disservice. They would be handcuffing May in her negotiations with the EU. We do have an opportunity here to tell the EU give us a fair deal or its no deal. When you are looking to buy a house you don't tell the seller that not buying the house is not an option. Should have been our stance from the outset. We should have had leverage from the outset, the EU have been playing games because we let them, they don't want us to leave because: They need our money They dont want other countries to see you can leave and get on with life Edited by Badger11 (16 Jan 2019 10.23am)
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Spiderman

Horsham 16 Jan 19 1.05pm

Originally posted by Badger11

Which is why the group of MPs who want to pass a motion that NO deal is not an option are doing this country a disservice. They would be handcuffing May in her negotiations with the EU.

We do have an opportunity here to tell the EU give us a fair deal or its no deal. When you are looking to buy a house you don't tell the seller that not buying the house is not an option.

Should have been our stance from the outset. We should have had leverage from the outset, the EU have been playing games because we let them, they don't want us to leave because:
They need our money
They dont want other countries to see you can leave and get on with life

Edited by Badger11 (16 Jan 2019 10.23am)

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Spiderman Horsham 16 Jan 19 1.07pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle On what basis did they "give it up"? Our democracy is not subject to variation simply because some wish it to be. Our MP's don't just have a right to act they have a duty to do so. Just remember what Harold Macmillan said when asked what politicians most feared. "Events, dear boy, events". They can choose not to do their duty but should they not do so that would be a huge failure of our trust in them. We have seen quite a few "events" since 2016 and our current leadership is showing far too much fear and not enough action. Those that suggest that if Parliament decides not to proceed with Brexit they will be breaking the trust of the people are wrong. If that is their collective will then it is their duty to act accordingly. Those that suggest that in so doing Parliament would unleash an almighty backlash are obviously correct because the myth that the Referendum was sacrosanct has been allowed to grow in the heads of the hardline Brexiteers. That myth needs to be debunked and shown to be inconsistent with our democracy, through quiet and persistent reasoning. Everyone can respect sincerely held views and that there is a sizable minority within the UK who feel we would be better off outside the EU. What cannot be accepted are threats that when our democratic system works that people refuse to accept it. Most Brexiteers would agree with that, but currently come to a totally different conclusion about what it means. So just pause and reflect on what our democratic system really is. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (16 Jan 2019 12.46pm) Like the remainers you mean
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Spiderman

Horsham 16 Jan 19 1.07pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That myth needs to be debunked and shown to be inconsistent with our democracy, through quiet and persistent reasoning.

Everyone can respect sincerely held views and that there is a sizable minority within the UK who feel we would be better off outside the EU.

What cannot be accepted are threats that when our democratic system works that people refuse to accept it. Most Brexiteers would agree with that, but currently come to a totally different conclusion about what it means. So just pause and reflect on what our democratic system really is.

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (16 Jan 2019 12.46pm)

Like the remainers you mean

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davenotamonkey 16 Jan 19 1.18pm
Originally posted by pefwin I take it you are still in the US as you missed JRM's many many interviews where he did not accept the result, even trying to spin it as a win. "May I congratulate the Prime Minister on winning the confidence of the Conservatives in this House last week and assure her that she, therefore, commands my confidence too." -- JRM, addressing the HOC. Despite losing, and consistently stating his opinion that she should not be leader, he nevertheless stands by her as per his democratic mandate and loyalty to the party he was elected to represent on a manifesto he is determined to adhere to. If only those you seem to revere applied the same respect for democratic process, and displayed the same integrity. But then again, as acolytes of the EU, I suppose we have no right to assume they would.
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davenotamonkey

16 Jan 19 1.18pm

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Originally posted by pefwin

I take it you are still in the US as you missed JRM's many many interviews where he did not accept the result, even trying to spin it as a win.

"May I congratulate the Prime Minister on winning the confidence of the Conservatives in this House last week and assure her that she, therefore, commands my confidence too."

-- JRM, addressing the HOC. Despite losing, and consistently stating his opinion that she should not be leader, he nevertheless stands by her as per his democratic mandate and loyalty to the party he was elected to represent on a manifesto he is determined to adhere to.

If only those you seem to revere applied the same respect for democratic process, and displayed the same integrity. But then again, as acolytes of the EU, I suppose we have no right to assume they would.

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dannyboy1978 16 Jan 19 1.30pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Any democratic vote can be overturned by another. It is not within the power of the government to deliver brexit. It can simply be overturned next time. So why did we have to wait 40 years then?
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dannyboy1978

16 Jan 19 1.30pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Any democratic vote can be overturned by another.

It is not within the power of the government to deliver brexit.

It can simply be overturned next time.

So why did we have to wait 40 years then?

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Pussay Patrol 16 Jan 19 1.36pm
They voted against the may deal, that's democracy, the no confidence in the government is democracy, going to 2nd referendum or a general election - democracy. Brexit could get reversed through democracy You can't only have the bits of democracy that you like ....And don't forget this is the democracy and sovereignty that you voted to leave for Edited by Pussay Patrol (16 Jan 2019 1.38pm) Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah
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Pussay Patrol

16 Jan 19 1.36pm

They voted against the may deal, that's democracy, the no confidence in the government is democracy, going to 2nd referendum or a general election - democracy. Brexit could get reversed through democracy

You can't only have the bits of democracy that you like

....And don't forget this is the democracy and sovereignty that you voted to leave for

Edited by Pussay Patrol (16 Jan 2019 1.38pm)

Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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Midlands Eagle 16 Jan 19 1.46pm
Originally posted by Pussay Patrol They voted against the may deal, that's democracy, the no confidence in the government is democracy, going to 2nd referendum or a general election - democracy. Brexit could get reversed through democracy You can't only have the bits of democracy that you like Surely that is what you remoaners are after - one democratic vote after another until you get the result that you want
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Midlands Eagle

16 Jan 19 1.46pm

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Originally posted by Pussay Patrol

You can't only have the bits of democracy that you like

Surely that is what you remoaners are after - one democratic vote after another until you get the result that you want

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Frickin Saweet South Cronx 16 Jan 19 1.51pm
Originally posted by Matov Quite. And whilst people fear the damage (wrongly in my opinion but we will not know until/if it happens) a no-deal exit might bring, the potential forces unleashed should Parliament seek to overturn the result on June 23rd do not bear thinking about. Our entire system of Governance will be potentially under threat because why should anybody ever bother either voting or having any faith what so ever in a politician? this is what worries me the most. I voted remain for quite personal reasons that my wife is from the EU and I couldn't endorse anything that makes it harder to see family across Europe or her to feel like a second-class citizen. But even with all that said, if the Govt reneges on democratic process it does far more damage than any short term economic uncertainty that leaving the EU causes. What would be the point in voting for anything again?
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Frickin Saweet

South Cronx 16 Jan 19 1.51pm

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Originally posted by Matov

Quite.

And whilst people fear the damage (wrongly in my opinion but we will not know until/if it happens) a no-deal exit might bring, the potential forces unleashed should Parliament seek to overturn the result on June 23rd do not bear thinking about.

Our entire system of Governance will be potentially under threat because why should anybody ever bother either voting or having any faith what so ever in a politician?

this is what worries me the most. I voted remain for quite personal reasons that my wife is from the EU and I couldn't endorse anything that makes it harder to see family across Europe or her to feel like a second-class citizen. But even with all that said, if the Govt reneges on democratic process it does far more damage than any short term economic uncertainty that leaving the EU causes. What would be the point in voting for anything again?

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steeleye20 Croydon 16 Jan 19 1.52pm
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle Surely that is what you remoaners are after - one democratic vote after another until you get the result that you want If we do then we are misguided, as the following referendum or election could change it all again.
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steeleye20

Croydon 16 Jan 19 1.52pm

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

Surely that is what you remoaners are after - one democratic vote after another until you get the result that you want

If we do then we are misguided, as the following referendum or election could change it all again.

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