Cummings turns on Boris.

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Cummings turns on Boris.

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martin2412 Living The Dream 26 May 21 8.08pm
Originally posted by DanH You realise it is possible to think the vaccine roll out has been brilliant but that the initial response to Covid was absolutely woeful don’t you? The latter, along with other decisions around locking down, cost tens of thousands of lives. You can read can you ? I said that mistakes were made. I was pointing out that people harp on about lives lost but not the lives saved bit.
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martin2412

Living The Dream 26 May 21 8.08pm

Originally posted by DanH

You realise it is possible to think the vaccine roll out has been brilliant but that the initial response to Covid was absolutely woeful don’t you? The latter, along with other decisions around locking down, cost tens of thousands of lives.

You can read can you ? I said that mistakes were made. I was pointing out that people harp on about lives lost but not the lives saved bit.

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DanH SW2 26 May 21 8.08pm
Originally posted by Matov Only question that matters politically is this going to move the polling? And if it is going to impact negatively on Johnson, there needs to be a narrative that somehow Labour would have done better or are more competent overall. Really? I suspect it will not damage Johnson significantly. Perhaps a slight movement in the polls but he has more than enough comfort space on those and by the time the next election comes around, might not even have a functioning opposition to even be bothered about. Also, people are bored of Covid now. They just want to move on. Get back to work, get back to sport, get back to concerts, get back to travelling abroad. It happened, it is over and we move on. Plenty to hurt Johnson between now and the next GE but I think Covid is not going to be it. The success of the vaccine rollout counter-balancing any errors at the start. Been harbouring a theory for a while now that we might have even evolved to somehow collectively 'forget' about the impacts of pandemics. That humanity has been through so many that we either effectively blank them out or else we would be reduced to quivering wrecks, unable to move from behind our front doors or want to avoid any kind of close contact with strangers. Look how we mock people who obesses over germs? That does not just happen for no reason. On this normal island I’m expecting at least a +5 boost in the next polls for the Tories.
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DanH

SW2 26 May 21 8.08pm

Originally posted by Matov

Only question that matters politically is this going to move the polling?

And if it is going to impact negatively on Johnson, there needs to be a narrative that somehow Labour would have done better or are more competent overall.

Really?

I suspect it will not damage Johnson significantly. Perhaps a slight movement in the polls but he has more than enough comfort space on those and by the time the next election comes around, might not even have a functioning opposition to even be bothered about.

Also, people are bored of Covid now. They just want to move on. Get back to work, get back to sport, get back to concerts, get back to travelling abroad. It happened, it is over and we move on. Plenty to hurt Johnson between now and the next GE but I think Covid is not going to be it. The success of the vaccine rollout counter-balancing any errors at the start.

Been harbouring a theory for a while now that we might have even evolved to somehow collectively 'forget' about the impacts of pandemics. That humanity has been through so many that we either effectively blank them out or else we would be reduced to quivering wrecks, unable to move from behind our front doors or want to avoid any kind of close contact with strangers. Look how we mock people who obesses over germs? That does not just happen for no reason.

On this normal island I’m expecting at least a +5 boost in the next polls for the Tories.

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DanH SW2 26 May 21 8.10pm
Originally posted by martin2412 You can read can you ? I said that mistakes were made. I was pointing out that people harp on about lives lost but not the lives saved bit. ‘Harp on’ about lives lost? Nice, caring language about people who have died and left loved ones. Many more lives would have been saved if they had made better decisions and took this more seriously at the start. Even now our border/quarantine policy is still a joke. 15 months on.
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DanH

SW2 26 May 21 8.10pm

Originally posted by martin2412

You can read can you ? I said that mistakes were made. I was pointing out that people harp on about lives lost but not the lives saved bit.

‘Harp on’ about lives lost? Nice, caring language about people who have died and left loved ones.

Many more lives would have been saved if they had made better decisions and took this more seriously at the start. Even now our border/quarantine policy is still a joke. 15 months on.

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Matov 26 May 21 8.27pm
Originally posted by DanH On this normal island I’m expecting at least a +5 boost in the next polls for the Tories. LOL. Nothing would surprise me at the moment. As I have bored many people with before, we are into through the looking glass politics as things stand, and geneuinly can see no way back for Labour. A busted flush. Also, a problem for many of you on the Left is that you slated Cummings so much last year that when you try and use him now by way of attacking Johnson, it loses much of its impact. He can easily be portrayed as a man scored and your parroting of what he had to claim, as hypocrisy of the highest order. Edited by Matov (26 May 2021 8.28pm) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

26 May 21 8.27pm

Originally posted by DanH

On this normal island I’m expecting at least a +5 boost in the next polls for the Tories.

LOL. Nothing would surprise me at the moment. As I have bored many people with before, we are into through the looking glass politics as things stand, and geneuinly can see no way back for Labour. A busted flush.

Also, a problem for many of you on the Left is that you slated Cummings so much last year that when you try and use him now by way of attacking Johnson, it loses much of its impact. He can easily be portrayed as a man scored and your parroting of what he had to claim, as hypocrisy of the highest order.

Edited by Matov (26 May 2021 8.28pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Stirlingsays 26 May 21 8.27pm
It kind of amazes me....most probably came out of a Chinese lab and everyone wants to rage at western politicians. The south Koreans and Japanese don't trust the Chinese at all and coped with this very well, despite having large population densities. Sure people can pick at stuff but....like I say, it's like China got off scot free....Money talks. Edited by Stirlingsays (26 May 2021 8.29pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

26 May 21 8.27pm

It kind of amazes me....most probably came out of a Chinese lab and everyone wants to rage at western politicians.

The south Koreans and Japanese don't trust the Chinese at all and coped with this very well, despite having large population densities.

Sure people can pick at stuff but....like I say, it's like China got off scot free....Money talks.

Edited by Stirlingsays (26 May 2021 8.29pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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martin2412 Living The Dream 26 May 21 8.27pm
Originally posted by DanH ‘Harp on’ about lives lost? Nice, caring language about people who have died and left loved ones. Many more lives would have been saved if they had made better decisions and took this more seriously at the start. Even now our border/quarantine policy is still a joke. 15 months on. I agree about the border/quarantine policy. After all that had happened over the last year they should have turned people around who were in the air as soon as the Indian variant became apparent and shut up shop. But that was left open because Johnson was due to go on a state visit to India around that time, and they couldn't be seen to ban anyone travelling while that was still in the offing. A mistake. I don't think anyone didn't take the situation seriously. As I said before, it was an unprecedented situation which was dealt with on the hoof. No matter what the government done, they would have been in the wrong according to the left. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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martin2412

Living The Dream 26 May 21 8.27pm

Originally posted by DanH

‘Harp on’ about lives lost? Nice, caring language about people who have died and left loved ones.

Many more lives would have been saved if they had made better decisions and took this more seriously at the start. Even now our border/quarantine policy is still a joke. 15 months on.

I agree about the border/quarantine policy. After all that had happened over the last year they should have turned people around who were in the air as soon as the Indian variant became apparent and shut up shop. But that was left open because Johnson was due to go on a state visit to India around that time, and they couldn't be seen to ban anyone travelling while that was still in the offing. A mistake.

I don't think anyone didn't take the situation seriously. As I said before, it was an unprecedented situation which was dealt with on the hoof.

No matter what the government done, they would have been in the wrong according to the left.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

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DanH SW2 26 May 21 8.37pm
Originally posted by martin2412 I agree about the border/quarantine policy. After all that had happened over the last year they should have turned people around who were in the air as soon as the Indian variant became apparent and shut up shop. But that was left open because Johnson was due to go on a state visit to India around that time, and they couldn't be seen to ban anyone travelling while that was still in the offing. A mistake. I don't think anyone didn't take the situation seriously. As I said before, it was an unprecedented situation which was dealt with on the hoof. No matter what the government done, they would have been in the wrong according to the left. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Agree with you re: borders. There’s a lot to digest with the Cummings evidence but if you get a chance the bit around the (in)action in the critical months in Q1 of 2020 show that it really wasn’t taken with the level of seriousness that it should have been in SW1 until it was too late.
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DanH

SW2 26 May 21 8.37pm

Originally posted by martin2412

I don't think anyone didn't take the situation seriously. As I said before, it was an unprecedented situation which was dealt with on the hoof.

No matter what the government done, they would have been in the wrong according to the left.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Agree with you re: borders. There’s a lot to digest with the Cummings evidence but if you get a chance the bit around the (in)action in the critical months in Q1 of 2020 show that it really wasn’t taken with the level of seriousness that it should have been in SW1 until it was too late.

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Orange1290 26 May 21 8.42pm
Originally posted by Matov Also, a problem for many of you on the Left is that you slated Cummings so much last year that when you try and use him now by way of attacking Johnson, it loses much of its impact. He can easily be portrayed as a man scored and your parroting of what he had to claim, as hypocrisy of the highest order. Edited by Matov (26 May 2021 8.28pm) That works both ways as those who were singing his praises over brexit and how his breaking of clear covid regulations was 'nit picking', are now calling him a 'liar', 'sour grapes', etc. What's,happening right now is a sad meltdown of UK politics that's going to damage the UK's international standing even more than it has been already. Pro China, EU & Palestine
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Orange1290

26 May 21 8.42pm

Originally posted by Matov

Edited by Matov (26 May 2021 8.28pm)

That works both ways as those who were singing his praises over brexit and how his breaking of clear covid regulations was 'nit picking', are now calling him a 'liar', 'sour grapes', etc. What's,happening right now is a sad meltdown of UK politics that's going to damage the UK's international standing even more than it has been already.

Pro China, EU & Palestine

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Matov 26 May 21 8.45pm
Originally posted by DanH Agree with you re: borders. There’s a lot to digest with the Cummings evidence but if you get a chance the bit around the (in)action in the critical months in Q1 of 2020 show that it really wasn’t taken with the level of seriousness that it should have been in SW1 until it was too late. Not defending the reaction but sometimes with regards to potential pandemics, it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. And in this modern era, there is nothing to really reflect back on by way of how to react. Covid ultimately kills like all virus are meant to, impacting primarily on those already infirm. From a purely Darwinian POV, and not one I agree with, a virus like Covid is potentially actually good for a society. Even now, the average age of people dying from the disease is above the average life expectancy anyway and there were still so many unknowns about Covid, along with no real appreciation of how quickly a vaccine could be rolled out. You could argue that a Government's duty of care is to act in a manner that is beneficial for the majority with the subsequent lock-downs and so on potentially far more damaging to wider society because of late cancer diagnoses and so on. It's a lot more complex than just jumping on an anti-Tory bandwagon. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

26 May 21 8.45pm

Originally posted by DanH

Not defending the reaction but sometimes with regards to potential pandemics, it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. And in this modern era, there is nothing to really reflect back on by way of how to react. Covid ultimately kills like all virus are meant to, impacting primarily on those already infirm. From a purely Darwinian POV, and not one I agree with, a virus like Covid is potentially actually good for a society.

Even now, the average age of people dying from the disease is above the average life expectancy anyway and there were still so many unknowns about Covid, along with no real appreciation of how quickly a vaccine could be rolled out.

You could argue that a Government's duty of care is to act in a manner that is beneficial for the majority with the subsequent lock-downs and so on potentially far more damaging to wider society because of late cancer diagnoses and so on.

It's a lot more complex than just jumping on an anti-Tory bandwagon.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Matov 26 May 21 9.28pm
Originally posted by Orange1290 That works both ways as those who were singing his praises over brexit and how his breaking of clear covid regulations was 'nit picking', are now calling him a 'liar', 'sour grapes', etc. What's,happening right now is a sad meltdown of UK politics that's going to damage the UK's international standing even more than it has been already. You are perfectly right in that this cuts both ways but it is also clear that there is little faith in any claim that Labour would have done better. Now I suspect that given the Lefts natural inclination towards centralised control that it's possible that a Labour government might have locked down both quicker and with a much greater deal of severity but that does not necessarily mean the public would ultimately reward that stance at the ballot box. Might even provoke a real back-lash, especially if it dragged on for the entirity of 2021 which, lets be honest, the Left have been pushing for. Zero Covid is the catch phrase. And it's almost a definite certainty that Labour would have thrown in with the wider European joint vaccine approach and we all know how well that is gone. If the polls do not show any kind of movement after what Cummings has done today then what else is there for Labour to do? Because if Boris can walk away from Covid with an increased popularity, then Labour might as well just give up. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

26 May 21 9.28pm

Originally posted by Orange1290

You are perfectly right in that this cuts both ways but it is also clear that there is little faith in any claim that Labour would have done better.

Now I suspect that given the Lefts natural inclination towards centralised control that it's possible that a Labour government might have locked down both quicker and with a much greater deal of severity but that does not necessarily mean the public would ultimately reward that stance at the ballot box. Might even provoke a real back-lash, especially if it dragged on for the entirity of 2021 which, lets be honest, the Left have been pushing for. Zero Covid is the catch phrase.

And it's almost a definite certainty that Labour would have thrown in with the wider European joint vaccine approach and we all know how well that is gone.

If the polls do not show any kind of movement after what Cummings has done today then what else is there for Labour to do? Because if Boris can walk away from Covid with an increased popularity, then Labour might as well just give up.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 May 21 9.29pm
Originally posted by DanH A lot of the focus is on the lack of seriousness this was given at the start and a lack of any plan before it was all too late. It was obvious from what had happened in China and closer to home what was happening in Italy how serious this was and that achieving herd immunity through natural means in a short space of time would be catastrophic. There were plenty of means available to the government to stop the virus seeding here such as shutting borders, enforced quarantines and an effective track and trace system that would have kept virus numbers much, much lower and allowed people to have gone about their business with a lot more freedom than we have been allowed to over the last 15 months. We didn’t have the tests or the means to produce them. Germany did snd were able to do this, but eventually Covid got its way when Britain was getting vaccinated and Germany wasn’t. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 May 21 9.29pm

Originally posted by DanH

A lot of the focus is on the lack of seriousness this was given at the start and a lack of any plan before it was all too late. It was obvious from what had happened in China and closer to home what was happening in Italy how serious this was and that achieving herd immunity through natural means in a short space of time would be catastrophic.

There were plenty of means available to the government to stop the virus seeding here such as shutting borders, enforced quarantines and an effective track and trace system that would have kept virus numbers much, much lower and allowed people to have gone about their business with a lot more freedom than we have been allowed to over the last 15 months.

We didn’t have the tests or the means to produce them. Germany did snd were able to do this, but eventually Covid got its way when Britain was getting vaccinated and Germany wasn’t.

COYP

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 May 21 9.32pm
Originally posted by DanH But that’s what has happened with what action (or lack of) the government has taken? We’ve had to get to this point because of the grip the virus has had and continued to have throughout the country. If the government had taken it more seriously at the start and kept the virus out as far as possible/enforced quarantine then we wouldn’t have had to have been in lockdown for so long over such a prolonged period. We’ve literally had the worst of both worlds. Bollox. Has Germany been free? No. Have any other European countries apart from Sweden? Don’t compare SE Asia and Australia and New Zealand to Britain. Edited by Rudi Hedman (26 May 2021 9.32pm) COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 26 May 21 9.32pm

Originally posted by DanH

But that’s what has happened with what action (or lack of) the government has taken?

We’ve had to get to this point because of the grip the virus has had and continued to have throughout the country. If the government had taken it more seriously at the start and kept the virus out as far as possible/enforced quarantine then we wouldn’t have had to have been in lockdown for so long over such a prolonged period.

We’ve literally had the worst of both worlds.

Bollox. Has Germany been free? No. Have any other European countries apart from Sweden? Don’t compare SE Asia and Australia and New Zealand to Britain.

Edited by Rudi Hedman (26 May 2021 9.32pm)

COYP

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