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Ketteridge Brighton 18 Aug 17 10.38am | |
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Unless I'm missing something the ‘alr-right’ who turned up on Friday to protest at the statues being taken down main concern wasn’t with the historical context or fear of airbrushing history, they weren’t the militant wing of the Smithsonian. If that is the case then I take it the unite the right group would have no problem with other statues and memeorials been placed in town squares to remember the slaves ,segregation lynching’s and other aspects of the Southern states ‘culture’ to help place the General Lee statue in context.
One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A |
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Ketteridge Brighton 18 Aug 17 10.55am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
The Holocaust was a genocide of one group by an enemy. We don't want to forget the Nazis because they are a symbol of where you get to if you allow prejudice created by self-interest to go unbridled. That story is told by the victors. You have to ask yourself where you draw the line. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (17 Aug 2017 6.43pm) You're right political tokenism is stupid but largely harmless if it is a token gesture then it doesn’t mean anything, but this does not look like tokenism.If it is tokenism then the tearing down of statues would cause no reaction from unite the right groups which obviously has .It is because these statues are symbols of the prejudices that still exists in the minds of some and the prejudices that was in living memory legitimised by law at state levels that they should be taken. Retrospect implies we have all moved on, which clearly hasn't happened.
One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A |
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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Aug 17 11.38am | |
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Originally posted by Ketteridge
Unless I'm missing something the ‘alr-right’ who turned up on Friday to protest at the statues being taken down main concern wasn’t with the historical context or fear of airbrushing history, they weren’t the militant wing of the Smithsonian. If that is the case then I take it the unite the right group would have no problem with other statues and memeorials been placed in town squares to remember the slaves ,segregation lynching’s and other aspects of the Southern states ‘culture’ to help place the General Lee statue in context. They are statues of historical figures who defended the southern way of life which at that time included the legal slavery.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 18 Aug 17 12.08pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
They are statues of historical figures who defended the southern way of life which at that time included the legal slavery. It's like iconoclasm of the Puritans - daft then, daft now. The new left are the new Puritans.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Ketteridge Brighton 18 Aug 17 4.35pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
They are statues of historical figures who defended the southern way of life which at that time included the legal slavery. I would agree with you if the statues were neutral pieces of art or symbols of long resolved wars and conflicts but evidently they are not to the people living Virginia and other southern states in the U.S. We have largely come to terms with both Wallace and Cromwell as symbols , Cromwell I would say is seen for his role in curbing the power of the asserting the role and power of parliament but that his reign led to tyranny, but those issues are resolved absolute monarchist and puritans are no longer kicking off on St Stephens green. Yes Scottish independence is a still a live issue but it is pursued through legal and democratic means it. Wallace and Cromwell statues no longer have the associated symbolism. A statue of Cromwell would still in Ireland and Sean Russell’s still does cause controversy .
One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 18 Aug 17 4.52pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
They are statues of historical figures who defended the southern way of life which at that time included the legal slavery. Hmm and when were many of these statues put up? 1924 - 59 years after the end of the civil war. The south sure was in a rush to commemorate their war hero (ironically a man who personally objected to the idea of Confederate War Memorials). Oddly it seems that most of these statues went up in the 20s during the Jim Crow laws, and during the 50s and 60s during the civil rights campaign... hmm
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Aug 17 4.55pm | |
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Originally posted by Ketteridge
I would agree with you if the statues were neutral pieces of art or symbols of long resolved wars and conflicts but evidently they are not to the people living Virginia and other southern states in the U.S. We have largely come to terms with both Wallace and Cromwell as symbols , Cromwell I would say is seen for his role in curbing the power of the asserting the role and power of parliament but that his reign led to tyranny, but those issues are resolved absolute monarchist and puritans are no longer kicking off on St Stephens green. Yes Scottish independence is a still a live issue but it is pursued through legal and democratic means it. Wallace and Cromwell statues no longer have the associated symbolism. A statue of Cromwell would still in Ireland and Sean Russell’s still does cause controversy . I understand your point, but statues and monuments do nothing except sit there getting green. It's people that are the problem. All the time we have Nazis, anti Nazis, identity politics, Black Power etc, we have a problem.
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Stirlingsays 18 Aug 17 5.00pm | |
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Originally posted by Ketteridge
Have we? You speak for yourself there. Wallace I understand, but Cromwell in Ireland was an unnecessary butcher. However, I understand his historical significance and I'm not an over-reactionary virtue signaler like so many 'progressives' especially in the US.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Aug 17 5.01pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Hmm and when were many of these statues put up? 1924 - 59 years after the end of the civil war. The south sure was in a rush to commemorate their war hero (ironically a man who personally objected to the idea of Confederate War Memorials). Oddly it seems that most of these statues went up in the 20s during the Jim Crow laws, and during the 50s and 60s during the civil rights campaign... hmm
Yeah, and this is the bone of contention. One wonders precisely why the statues were erected.
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Stirlingsays 18 Aug 17 5.05pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Hmm and when were many of these statues put up? 1924 - 59 years after the end of the civil war. The south sure was in a rush to commemorate their war hero (ironically a man who personally objected to the idea of Confederate War Memorials). Oddly it seems that most of these statues went up in the 20s during the Jim Crow laws, and during the 50s and 60s during the civil rights campaign... hmm
Jamie, I remember you previously making the argument that people shouldn't feel a connection to past events that other generations did. They shouldn't feel pride in achievements or transgressions that didn't personally involve them. When you made that argument I completely disagreed of course and still do....however, if this is what you believe then why do you even have an opinion on this?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 18 Aug 17 6.47pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Jamie, I remember you previously making the argument that people shouldn't feel a connection to past events that other generations did. They shouldn't feel pride in achievements or transgressions that didn't personally involve them. When you made that argument I completely disagreed of course and still do....however, if this is what you believe then why do you even have an opinion on this? Let them be. When you see a statue pulled down you generally feel it is a revision of history. Be it Stalin, Saddam, or Thatcher.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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Ketteridge Brighton 18 Aug 17 6.56pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Have we? You speak for yourself there. Wallace I understand, but Cromwell in Ireland was an unnecessary butcher. However, I understand his historical significance and I'm not an over-reactionary virtue signaler like so many 'progressives' especially in the US.
One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A |
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