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Confederate Statues

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Ketteridge Flag Brighton 18 Aug 17 10.38am Send a Private Message to Ketteridge Add Ketteridge as a friend

Unless I'm missing something the ‘alr-right’ who turned up on Friday to protest at the statues being taken down main concern wasn’t with the historical context or fear of airbrushing history, they weren’t the militant wing of the Smithsonian. If that is the case then I take it the unite the right group would have no problem with other statues and memeorials been placed in town squares to remember the slaves ,segregation lynching’s and other aspects of the Southern states ‘culture’ to help place the General Lee statue in context.
This was racist and white supremacist groups wanting to defend their symbols of power and those that supported a vile system.

 


One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A

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Ketteridge Flag Brighton 18 Aug 17 10.55am Send a Private Message to Ketteridge Add Ketteridge as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

The Holocaust was a genocide of one group by an enemy. We don't want to forget the Nazis because they are a symbol of where you get to if you allow prejudice created by self-interest to go unbridled. That story is told by the victors.
Slavery helped facilitate the modern world and as unpalatable as that is, it is an undeniable fact of history and one that directly relates to today.
Slavery is an integral part of history which was legal and accepted as normal at that time in history. To airbrush out that fact would be foolish for reasons previously discussed and to completely vilify those that wanted it to continue would be judging their attitudes by modern standards.
I see no point in the retrospective demonisation of historical figures as it serves no purpose beyond political tokenism and pandering to stupidity.

You have to ask yourself where you draw the line.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (17 Aug 2017 6.43pm)

You're right political tokenism is stupid but largely harmless if it is a token gesture then it doesn’t mean anything, but this does not look like tokenism.If it is tokenism then the tearing down of statues would cause no reaction from unite the right groups which obviously has .It is because these statues are symbols of the prejudices that still exists in the minds of some and the prejudices that was in living memory legitimised by law at state levels that they should be taken. Retrospect implies we have all moved on, which clearly hasn't happened.

 


One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 18 Aug 17 11.38am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Ketteridge

Unless I'm missing something the ‘alr-right’ who turned up on Friday to protest at the statues being taken down main concern wasn’t with the historical context or fear of airbrushing history, they weren’t the militant wing of the Smithsonian. If that is the case then I take it the unite the right group would have no problem with other statues and memeorials been placed in town squares to remember the slaves ,segregation lynching’s and other aspects of the Southern states ‘culture’ to help place the General Lee statue in context.
This was racist and white supremacist groups wanting to defend their symbols of power and those that supported a vile system.

They are statues of historical figures who defended the southern way of life which at that time included the legal slavery.
I undrstand that some so called neo Nazis might see them as a symbol of white power but many others probably don't.
Either way, I find the preoccupation with statues by all sides totally knuckleheaded. Removing them is pandering to dumbassery as is celebrating them as a symbol of white confederate resistance. The South lost and it ain't coming back.
Beyond that, I see no difference between having a statue of a Confederate hero to one of Oliver Cromwell, William Wallace or Sean Russell.

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 18 Aug 17 12.08pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

They are statues of historical figures who defended the southern way of life which at that time included the legal slavery.
I undrstand that some so called neo Nazis might see them as a symbol of white power but many others probably don't.
Either way, I find the preoccupation with statues by all sides totally knuckleheaded. Removing them is pandering to dumbassery as is celebrating them as a symbol of white confederate resistance. The South lost and it ain't coming back.
Beyond that, I see no difference between having a statue of a Confederate hero to one of Oliver Cromwell, William Wallace or Sean Russell.

It's like iconoclasm of the Puritans - daft then, daft now. The new left are the new Puritans.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Ketteridge Flag Brighton 18 Aug 17 4.35pm Send a Private Message to Ketteridge Add Ketteridge as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

They are statues of historical figures who defended the southern way of life which at that time included the legal slavery.
I undrstand that some so called neo Nazis might see them as a symbol of white power but many others probably don't.
Either way, I find the preoccupation with statues by all sides totally knuckleheaded. Removing them is pandering to dumbassery as is celebrating them as a symbol of white confederate resistance. The South lost and it ain't coming back.
Beyond that, I see no difference between having a statue of a Confederate hero to one of Oliver Cromwell, William Wallace or Sean Russell.

I would agree with you if the statues were neutral pieces of art or symbols of long resolved wars and conflicts but evidently they are not to the people living Virginia and other southern states in the U.S.

We have largely come to terms with both Wallace and Cromwell as symbols , Cromwell I would say is seen for his role in curbing the power of the asserting the role and power of parliament but that his reign led to tyranny, but those issues are resolved absolute monarchist and puritans are no longer kicking off on St Stephens green. Yes Scottish independence is a still a live issue but it is pursued through legal and democratic means it. Wallace and Cromwell statues no longer have the associated symbolism. A statue of Cromwell would still in Ireland and Sean Russell’s still does cause controversy .
Yes , the confederate statues are of historical figures but their power and symbolism has not been lost in the passing off time, one aspect of the south’s ‘way of life’ might have died at the end of the civil war but the ideas of racial superiority at it’s core lived on.

 


One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 18 Aug 17 4.52pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

They are statues of historical figures who defended the southern way of life which at that time included the legal slavery.
I undrstand that some so called neo Nazis might see them as a symbol of white power but many others probably don't.
Either way, I find the preoccupation with statues by all sides totally knuckleheaded. Removing them is pandering to dumbassery as is celebrating them as a symbol of white confederate resistance. The South lost and it ain't coming back.
Beyond that, I see no difference between having a statue of a Confederate hero to one of Oliver Cromwell, William Wallace or Sean Russell.

Hmm and when were many of these statues put up? 1924 - 59 years after the end of the civil war. The south sure was in a rush to commemorate their war hero (ironically a man who personally objected to the idea of Confederate War Memorials).

Oddly it seems that most of these statues went up in the 20s during the Jim Crow laws, and during the 50s and 60s during the civil rights campaign... hmm


Edited by jamiemartin721 (18 Aug 2017 4.55pm)

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 18 Aug 17 4.55pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Ketteridge

I would agree with you if the statues were neutral pieces of art or symbols of long resolved wars and conflicts but evidently they are not to the people living Virginia and other southern states in the U.S.

We have largely come to terms with both Wallace and Cromwell as symbols , Cromwell I would say is seen for his role in curbing the power of the asserting the role and power of parliament but that his reign led to tyranny, but those issues are resolved absolute monarchist and puritans are no longer kicking off on St Stephens green. Yes Scottish independence is a still a live issue but it is pursued through legal and democratic means it. Wallace and Cromwell statues no longer have the associated symbolism. A statue of Cromwell would still in Ireland and Sean Russell’s still does cause controversy .
Yes , the confederate statues are of historical figures but their power and symbolism has not been lost in the passing off time, one aspect of the south’s ‘way of life’ might have died at the end of the civil war but the ideas of racial superiority at it’s core lived on.

I understand your point, but statues and monuments do nothing except sit there getting green. It's people that are the problem. All the time we have Nazis, anti Nazis, identity politics, Black Power etc, we have a problem.
Knowing humans, we will always have a problem.

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 18 Aug 17 5.00pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Ketteridge


We have largely come to terms with both Wallace and Cromwell as symbols.


Have we?

You speak for yourself there. Wallace I understand, but Cromwell in Ireland was an unnecessary butcher.

However, I understand his historical significance and I'm not an over-reactionary virtue signaler like so many 'progressives' especially in the US.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 18 Aug 17 5.01pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Hmm and when were many of these statues put up? 1924 - 59 years after the end of the civil war. The south sure was in a rush to commemorate their war hero (ironically a man who personally objected to the idea of Confederate War Memorials).

Oddly it seems that most of these statues went up in the 20s during the Jim Crow laws, and during the 50s and 60s during the civil rights campaign... hmm


Edited by jamiemartin721 (18 Aug 2017 4.55pm)

Yeah, and this is the bone of contention. One wonders precisely why the statues were erected.
Was it to commemorate the glory of Southern resistance and Southern culture or was it to celebrate a time when Black people were slaves?
I don't know the answer, but I am sure that statues aren't the problem. It's people with small brains.

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 18 Aug 17 5.05pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Hmm and when were many of these statues put up? 1924 - 59 years after the end of the civil war. The south sure was in a rush to commemorate their war hero (ironically a man who personally objected to the idea of Confederate War Memorials).

Oddly it seems that most of these statues went up in the 20s during the Jim Crow laws, and during the 50s and 60s during the civil rights campaign... hmm


Edited by jamiemartin721 (18 Aug 2017 4.55pm)

Jamie, I remember you previously making the argument that people shouldn't feel a connection to past events that other generations did. They shouldn't feel pride in achievements or transgressions that didn't personally involve them.

When you made that argument I completely disagreed of course and still do....however, if this is what you believe then why do you even have an opinion on this?

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 18 Aug 17 6.47pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Jamie, I remember you previously making the argument that people shouldn't feel a connection to past events that other generations did. They shouldn't feel pride in achievements or transgressions that didn't personally involve them.

When you made that argument I completely disagreed of course and still do....however, if this is what you believe then why do you even have an opinion on this?

Let them be.

When you see a statue pulled down you generally feel it is a revision of history. Be it Stalin, Saddam, or Thatcher.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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Ketteridge Flag Brighton 18 Aug 17 6.56pm Send a Private Message to Ketteridge Add Ketteridge as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Have we?

You speak for yourself there. Wallace I understand, but Cromwell in Ireland was an unnecessary butcher.

However, I understand his historical significance and I'm not an over-reactionary virtue signaler like so many 'progressives' especially in the US.


Sorry if I wasn't clear in stating that I meant a British context for Cromwell, a statue of Cromwell would still hold that symbolic power of oppression if it was in Ireland. I do state this in the part of my post you deleted, I did not really want to expand on my point about Parliamentarians and Monarchist because I didn't really want to divert from the subject of the thread.

 


One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A

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