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jamiemartin721  Reading 27 Jul 15 11.40am |
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Quote Cucking Funt at 27 Jul 2015 11.24am
Quote legaleagle at 27 Jul 2015 10.25am
I should think they would in fact think you are talking utter nonsense, and that you even thinking of S Rhodesia as a "golden age" of any kind being illustration of a stunning lack of actual knowledge and appreciation of their history. Mind you,they might think someone who equates Jeremy Corbyn with Stalin would be well capable of such a loopy view. Edited by legaleagle (27 Jul 2015 10.29am) It's all relative. Compared with living under Mugabe in Zimbabwe, I'd say that anything is preferable. Problem is that the rise to power of Mugabe is a direct result of the failure of previous racist policies and oppression of the black population. Similarly the same has happened to a lesser extent, in South Africa, the rise of the ANC hasn't really brought a better South Africa. Just one in which Black people have had a say in who 'f**ks them over'. Problem often with revolutionary movements, is the politic of envy, resulting in a situation where the otherthrow of a regime has become the same as the persecution of everyone involved in that regime. i.e an anti-racist cause, becomes a racial prejudicial cause, and those who chanted 'we shall over throw' become the oppressor. One of the problems of revolutions, is that they have a lot of angry people, rather than people who necessarily have a reasonable plan.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 27 Jul 15 11.41am |
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We should never have let the Empire go.
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| legaleagle 27 Jul 15 12.06pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 27 Jul 2015 11.40am
Quote Cucking Funt at 27 Jul 2015 11.24am
Quote legaleagle at 27 Jul 2015 10.25am
I should think they would in fact think you are talking utter nonsense, and that you even thinking of S Rhodesia as a "golden age" of any kind being illustration of a stunning lack of actual knowledge and appreciation of their history. Mind you,they might think someone who equates Jeremy Corbyn with Stalin would be well capable of such a loopy view. Edited by legaleagle (27 Jul 2015 10.29am) It's all relative. Compared with living under Mugabe in Zimbabwe, I'd say that anything is preferable. Problem is that the rise to power of Mugabe is a direct result of the failure of previous racist policies and oppression of the black population. Similarly the same has happened to a lesser extent, in South Africa, the rise of the ANC hasn't really brought a better South Africa. Just one in which Black people have had a say in who 'f**ks them over'. Problem often with revolutionary movements, is the politic of envy, resulting in a situation where the otherthrow of a regime has become the same as the persecution of everyone involved in that regime. i.e an anti-racist cause, becomes a racial prejudicial cause, and those who chanted 'we shall over throw' become the oppressor. One of the problems of revolutions, is that they have a lot of angry people, rather than people who necessarily have a reasonable plan.
However,for anyone to say that the lot of ordinary people in either country is objectively either the same as or worse than "pre-independence" or "pre-abolition of apartheid",is IMO stunningly misinformed and ignorant of the realities of everyday life and opportunities under the prior regimes. That a poster says living under Mugabe is worse than anything beforehand demonstrates an alarming ignorance of what the "beforehand" was.Bit like comparing life under Putin to that under Stalin.The former being very dodgy but not a patch on the horrors of the latter. But,then again,the same poster equates Jeremy Corbyn to Stalin on another thread, which says it all about their level of "objectivity"..
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 reborn 27 Jul 15 12.15pm |
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Wow, going by some of the posters on here the country is already fcked. Frankly I am glad to live somewhere so safe and prosperous (relatively), that people will endure hell and risk death just to reach it. Maybe some of you should think about that next time you are sharpening your bayonets for the filthy hordes at the gates.
My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs |
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| Stirlingsays 27 Jul 15 12.32pm |
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Quote reborn at 27 Jul 2015 12.15pm
Wow, going by some of the posters on here the country is already fcked. Frankly I am glad to live somewhere so safe and prosperous (relatively), that people will endure hell and risk death just to reach it. Maybe some of you should think about that next time you are sharpening your bayonets for the filthy hordes at the gates.
Eye of a needle and all that. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2015 12.32pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| leggedstruggle Croydon 27 Jul 15 12.35pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 27 Jul 2015 12.06pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 27 Jul 2015 11.40am
Quote Cucking Funt at 27 Jul 2015 11.24am
Quote legaleagle at 27 Jul 2015 10.25am
I should think they would in fact think you are talking utter nonsense, and that you even thinking of S Rhodesia as a "golden age" of any kind being illustration of a stunning lack of actual knowledge and appreciation of their history. Mind you,they might think someone who equates Jeremy Corbyn with Stalin would be well capable of such a loopy view. Edited by legaleagle (27 Jul 2015 10.29am) It's all relative. Compared with living under Mugabe in Zimbabwe, I'd say that anything is preferable. Problem is that the rise to power of Mugabe is a direct result of the failure of previous racist policies and oppression of the black population. Similarly the same has happened to a lesser extent, in South Africa, the rise of the ANC hasn't really brought a better South Africa. Just one in which Black people have had a say in who 'f**ks them over'. Problem often with revolutionary movements, is the politic of envy, resulting in a situation where the otherthrow of a regime has become the same as the persecution of everyone involved in that regime. i.e an anti-racist cause, becomes a racial prejudicial cause, and those who chanted 'we shall over throw' become the oppressor. One of the problems of revolutions, is that they have a lot of angry people, rather than people who necessarily have a reasonable plan.
However,for anyone to say that the lot of ordinary people in either country is objectively either the same as or worse than "pre-independence" or "pre-abolition of apartheid",is IMO stunningly misinformed and ignorant of the realities of everyday life and opportunities under the prior regimes. That a poster says living under Mugabe is worse than anything beforehand demonstrates an alarming ignorance of what the "beforehand" was.Bit like comparing life under Putin to that under Stalin.The former being very dodgy but not a patch on the horrors of the latter. But,then again,the same poster equates Jeremy Corbyn to Stalin on another thread, which says it all about their level of "objectivity".. LOL, I guess you could dismiss shooting dead 30+ striking black miners as 'less than exemplary' (where were the howls of outrage from the left by the way when it happened? Where were the calls for sports bans etc?). Perhaps you could run through the tremendous benefits that ordinary black people in Zimbawe have enjoyed under Mugabe. IMO you must be stunningly misinformed if you think they are better off than they were under Smith. Edited by leggedstruggle (27 Jul 2015 12.36pm)
mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler |
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| reborn 27 Jul 15 12.37pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2015 12.32pm
Quote reborn at 27 Jul 2015 12.15pm
Wow, going by some of the posters on here the country is already fcked. Frankly I am glad to live somewhere so safe and prosperous (relatively), that people will endure hell and risk death just to reach it. Maybe some of you should think about that next time you are sharpening your bayonets for the filthy hordes at the gates.
Eye of a needle and all that. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jul 2015 12.32pm) Firstly I am not rich by any means, secondly what on earth has my wealth or not got to do with the heartless and bigoted attitudes on here, 3rd I can only think that you are choosing to cite a once heard scripture, with as is usual, zero understanding of what it ACTUALLY means. I wouldn't feel too bad about that, its what most people do, but I will happily school you. The verse you have loosely referenced, was said by Jesus to illustrate that if you put wealth above the Kingdom of God then you can not be saved. It does not in reality mean that you can not acquire wealth, as long as you do good with it. Anyway, back to topic.............
My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs |
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| Stirlingsays 27 Jul 15 12.52pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 27 Jul 2015 9.34am
What he is talking about continued to take place up until recent times.It is too simplistic to simply equate the "rape and pillage" of Africa and Africans with the slavery period. The mass colonisation of Africa didn't even take place until long after slavery was abolished here. A statement that Africa was better off under European rule shows IMO a stunning lack of knowledge of either the continent in general or the history of most countries on it,as does a suggestion that the UK's contribution to economically exploiting the continent and sowing the roots of many of its problems today ended with the abolition of slavery.
My post focused upon Serial's constant usage of 'we'. An implication that a collective should feel responsible for slavery by association......Even though it's unlikely Hoof or anyone outside of relatives of rich families in Bristol, London and Liverpool had anything to do with it. I'm certainly not genetically connected to it and I refuse to feel any guilt for the evils of slavery. Africa under British rule was better for them in some structural ways but obviously being forcibly ruled isn't an ideal. Though compared to what they would have had.....No one can seriously say things would have been better. It's like India....The only reason the British ruled the country for so long was because there was no large number support for their previous rulers......though as in all cases nationalism increased over generations. There were benefits and disadvantages to colonial rule. They were 'crimes of their times' and revisionism that includes taking responsibility for national actions of centuries ago seems a little pointless to me.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 27 Jul 15 1.00pm |
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Quote reborn at 27 Jul 2015 12.37pm
Firstly I am not rich by any means, secondly what on earth has my wealth or not got to do with the heartless and bigoted attitudes on here, 3rd I can only think that you are choosing to cite a once heard scripture, with as is usual, zero understanding of what it ACTUALLY means. I wouldn't feel too bad about that, its what most people do, but I will happily school you. The verse you have loosely referenced, was said by Jesus to illustrate that if you put wealth above the Kingdom of God then you can not be saved. It does not in reality mean that you can not acquire wealth, as long as you do good with it. Anyway, back to topic.............
No, that's your interpretation of the verse.....My interpretation of it is as likely to be as valid as yours. There is nothing in the New Testament that backs up your interpretation at all. Your interpretation gives an excuse for materialism. It's the same interpretation Republicans use. There are other interpretations....There are other verses where Jesus indicates he isn't fond of wealth. 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me' (Matthew 19:21) Also don't be so arrogant as to presume upon my knowledge of the Bible. Just because I reject its fairy tales now doesn't mean I wasn't brought up with them.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Jul 15 1.08pm |
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I'm inclined to agree with Sterling for the most part, the sins of the fathers should not be inflicted on their sons etc... However, I would also point out that the racism(s) of the past, inform the cultures of today to some extent, and we cannot entirely separate a history from the present, and we should move to redress those issues, and share some understanding of why maybe, certain issues against 'us' in other communities might prevail. Its hard to see the injustices perpetuated against Black Americans of the civil rights movement and not feel angry. But its also important for those who do grow angry to remember that they also didn't stand alone. One of the problems of a lot of history is that it presents the easily 'digestible information' of the past, everyone remembers Emily Pankhurst, but forgets that it was her husband Richard who established the Suffrage movement for women's rights. An issue that many feminists like to conveniently forget, and consequently a very important man is airbrushed out of history
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| fed up eagle Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 27 Jul 15 1.10pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2015 2.02am
Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2015 1.30am
As for your last comment Hoof, we have funded despotic regimes which have tyrannised the area, produced bombs that have rained down on their villages and communities while continuing to turn a blind eye as oil and mining corporations pollute the environment. How can you possibly argue that we don't owe these people anything? Surprise me one time and show me you have a heart.
What you are talking about ended here nearly two hundred years ago. What you are talking about was carried by a vast minority compared to the actual population in Britain....Wealthy landowners. The vast majority of British people had absolutely nothing to do with the slave trade.....No slaves, no income from slaves. At what stage exactly shall we disassociate ourselves from the evils that men do? Shall Germans who weren't Nazis carry the guilt for acts they didn't take part in?.....Or should I feel guilt because I share the same skin colour as rich land owners based in Bristol from at least 180 years ago. This kind of fuzzy guilt is just completely unfair when applied to the general masses.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jul 15 1.15pm |
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Quote fed up eagle at 27 Jul 2015 1.10pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 27 Jul 2015 2.02am
Quote serial thriller at 27 Jul 2015 1.30am
As for your last comment Hoof, we have funded despotic regimes which have tyrannised the area, produced bombs that have rained down on their villages and communities while continuing to turn a blind eye as oil and mining corporations pollute the environment. How can you possibly argue that we don't owe these people anything? Surprise me one time and show me you have a heart.
What you are talking about ended here nearly two hundred years ago. What you are talking about was carried by a vast minority compared to the actual population in Britain....Wealthy landowners. The vast majority of British people had absolutely nothing to do with the slave trade.....No slaves, no income from slaves. At what stage exactly shall we disassociate ourselves from the evils that men do? Shall Germans who weren't Nazis carry the guilt for acts they didn't take part in?.....Or should I feel guilt because I share the same skin colour as rich land owners based in Bristol from at least 180 years ago. This kind of fuzzy guilt is just completely unfair when applied to the general masses.
Why is Ken Livingstone a 'chancer'?
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