I tend to think you're doing the same thing.

It wasn't only because they weren't right wing enough we certainly agree on that. Explaining the full reasons for what happened would take a couple of lengthy posts.

Certainly, not being right wing enough was the factor that created Reform and thus allowed many dissatisfied and thus former Conservative voters their alternative vote.

This idea that you can just ignore Reform and create a centralised Conservative party.....thus ignoring its right wing base is just unrealistic in my view.

Farage is not Tice and he's a lot better at grandstanding than the rather boring collection of (excepting Johnson) centralised liberal Conservatives.

As the country will just continue in its managed decline state under Starmer the attraction of a 'Thatcher lite' party (which isn't really my personal politics) will only grow.

I certainly notice that the Conservative party staying in the centre is the opinion of many Labour supporters and/or centralists/leftists it's not hard to understand why.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Jul 2024 12.14pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

And labour want to give control to elected mayors.
This has got pissed off and potless written all over it.

Centre right, not centre. I agree you couldn't have a centrist conservative party. Much like you couldn't have a fully right conservative party these days. Conditions just don't exist for it to allow such a party to grab the mass vote and majority with it.

And I think you overestimate just how many people are considered committed right wingers in this country.

I certainly don't think that the majority of the reform vote is made up of committed right wingers. Perhaps half.

The real issue for Labour is a Con party capable of taking some Reform votes but also a big chunk of Lab/LD vote. To do that they need to be centre right.

Also any chat about Farage running for PM next election is fantasy. But I can see why it's attractive as a belief to console people of a certain political persuasion.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

Centre right? What do you think Reform are then Far right?

The Tories were saying they were centre right anyway....Why would anyone believe them? They literally said one thing and did another for most of their time in government.

I think we certainly have had a centralist and rather woke Tory party since Cameron....all of the social stuff Reform voters tend not to like came in under these Tories.....they did nothing to stop it as Braverman points out.

I think that trust is broken....it's kind of been proven. I have to be honest I'm not seeing anyone on the 'centre right' of the Tory party who would win that trust back.

We don't agree that you can't have a fully right wing party today, just as I don't agree that you can't have a fully left wing party either.....I think a Corbyn party would probably do a similar job on the Labour party as Reform have done.

Neo/social liberalism is essentially what centralism has become, socially liberal and fiscally conservative and all it has given us is wealth transfers to the richest and a increasingly socially fractured society suffering a cost of living crises.

Personally I most definitely think there is considerable scope and potential success for proper parties on the right and left.....Managed decline might be fine for the markets but for the average punter it's going to be increasingly unpopular.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Jul 2024 5.12pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Needs work as a campaign slogan.

Well said. This is pretty much the same point I have been making. The Tories would be nuts to go further right or merge with Reform. To achieve that they first need to ensure they choose a new leader who understands that. Which could prove tricky. Apparently changing the rules by which they are chosen requires amending the constitution and I guess that also requires a membership vote. So the challenge must be to ensure that the choice given to the members by the MPs doesn’t include another right winger, like Truss, or they could commit suicide and choose them.

This is a critical time for the Tories.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.