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Israel / Palestine
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 matt_himself  Matataland 19 Aug 14 9.53pm |
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Quote Palacetinian at 19 Aug 2014 9.45pm
Quote matt_himself at 19 Aug 2014 9.26pm
Quote Palacetinian at 19 Aug 2014 9.21pm
Quote matt_himself at 19 Aug 2014 9.10pm
Quote Palacetinian at 19 Aug 2014 9.04pm
Quote nickgusset at 19 Aug 2014 8.49pm
Quote matt_himself at 19 Aug 2014 8.37pm
Quote Palacetinian at 19 Aug 2014 8.29pm
Quote Kingvagabond at 19 Aug 2014 8.21pm
Not sure if anyone at any stage on this thread said that they are massive fans of Hamas. However, the likes of you Matt and you Stirling have backed Israel to the hilt despite the fact that they are not defending themselves they are mass murdering hundreds of people.
So, do you agree with the Palestinian unilateral breaking of the truce? The truce ended when negotiations did. Neither side gave way enough to satiate the other sides demands. I don't agree with Hamas firing rockets, apart from being as useful as passing in the wind, it only leads to reprisals However, that is their chief negotiation tool whilst Israel refuse sovreigncy and open borders. I also think that Hamaseseses refusal to stop firing rockets shows how desperate things had become for Palestinians in Gaza. Don't forget, Israel have a say in pretty everything or anybody crossing the border. I've read some say that Israel have been slowly starving Gaza by controlling the calorific intake. A bit disbelievable if you ask me, but probably has some truth in it.
That's an article from 2012 about events between 2007 and 2010. It has nothing to do with the current conflict. It is the same bleedin' conflict! The Israeli blockade started the day the pulled out their forces from Gaza in 2006! Since then there have been three battles but the conflict is the same. Nothing gets in and out of Gaza unless it has been sanctioned by the Israelis apart from the tunnels built by Hamas, and businessmen, to bring in much needed material and medication as well as the stuff that Hamas have used to make their weapons. The title of the article starts with the words 'Israel used...' [note: 'used' in this context means past tense] and in the first paragraph references actions taken between 2007 and 2010. You are making yourself look ridiculous. Great response. Thanks for your contribution.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| Kingvagabond London 19 Aug 14 11.02pm |
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There was an episode of the West Wing once that reminds me of this. A plane full of doctors were flying to Oman which included President Bartlett's personal physician. The plane was shot down by a Syrian surface to air missile and all on board died. Bartlett was furious and grieving and wanted to carpet bomb Damascus. He was angered by his military chiefs recommending bombing a couple of military sites that were likely to be abandoned as the Syrians would know that's how the US would likely retaliate. Eventually Bartlett's chiefs make him realise that as much as its unfair, one of the things that Superpowers have to suck up is the that you have to make a proportional response. Generally think Spiderman and the with great power comes great responsibility concept. Israel has great power. Israel is in control of everything going in and out of Gaza. Israel is defended from 99% of the Hamas piss poor rockets because of Iron Dome. Israel has a strong economy especially down to American investment and trade. Israel has the military might to destroy the whole of Gaza if they really wanted due to America and Britain and other western nations selling them weapons. Israel has great power and because of that they have the responsibility to support the Gazan population. They have the responsibility if Hamas fire rockets over the border to airstrike military bases that are away from the civilian population only. They have the responsibility to make sure aid and medication are provided to the Gazan innocents. They have the responsibility to conduct ground missions to take out rocket installations in public places even if it means you may lose more of your own soldiers. That is what you do when you are a much much stronger nation. Israel doing what they are doing is murder plain and simple. That's not saying I don't think Hamas are wrong and should have their generals taken away for war crimes but the IDF should have exactly the same happen.
Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........ |
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| Stirlingsays 19 Aug 14 11.28pm |
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Quote Kingvagabond at 19 Aug 2014 11.02pm
There was an episode of the West Wing once that reminds me of this. A plane full of doctors were flying to Oman which included President Bartlett's personal physician. The plane was shot down by a Syrian surface to air missile and all on board died. Bartlett was furious and grieving and wanted to carpet bomb Damascus. He was angered by his military chiefs recommending bombing a couple of military sites that were likely to be abandoned as the Syrians would know that's how the US would likely retaliate. Eventually Bartlett's chiefs make him realise that as much as its unfair, one of the things that Superpowers have to suck up is the that you have to make a proportional response. Generally think Spiderman and the with great power comes great responsibility concept. Israel has great power. Israel is in control of everything going in and out of Gaza. Israel is defended from 99% of the Hamas piss poor rockets because of Iron Dome. Israel has a strong economy especially down to American investment and trade. Israel has the military might to destroy the whole of Gaza if they really wanted due to America and Britain and other western nations selling them weapons. Israel has great power and because of that they have the responsibility to support the Gazan population. They have the responsibility if Hamas fire rockets over the border to airstrike military bases that are away from the civilian population only. They have the responsibility to make sure aid and medication are provided to the Gazan innocents. They have the responsibility to conduct ground missions to take out rocket installations in public places even if it means you may lose more of your own soldiers. That is what you do when you are a much much stronger nation. Israel doing what they are doing is murder plain and simple. That's not saying I don't think Hamas are wrong and should have their generals taken away for war crimes but the IDF should have exactly the same happen.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Kingvagabond London 19 Aug 14 11.32pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 19 Aug 2014 11.28pm
Quote Kingvagabond at 19 Aug 2014 11.02pm
There was an episode of the West Wing once that reminds me of this. A plane full of doctors were flying to Oman which included President Bartlett's personal physician. The plane was shot down by a Syrian surface to air missile and all on board died. Bartlett was furious and grieving and wanted to carpet bomb Damascus. He was angered by his military chiefs recommending bombing a couple of military sites that were likely to be abandoned as the Syrians would know that's how the US would likely retaliate. Eventually Bartlett's chiefs make him realise that as much as its unfair, one of the things that Superpowers have to suck up is the that you have to make a proportional response. Generally think Spiderman and the with great power comes great responsibility concept. Israel has great power. Israel is in control of everything going in and out of Gaza. Israel is defended from 99% of the Hamas piss poor rockets because of Iron Dome. Israel has a strong economy especially down to American investment and trade. Israel has the military might to destroy the whole of Gaza if they really wanted due to America and Britain and other western nations selling them weapons. Israel has great power and because of that they have the responsibility to support the Gazan population. They have the responsibility if Hamas fire rockets over the border to airstrike military bases that are away from the civilian population only. They have the responsibility to make sure aid and medication are provided to the Gazan innocents. They have the responsibility to conduct ground missions to take out rocket installations in public places even if it means you may lose more of your own soldiers. That is what you do when you are a much much stronger nation. Israel doing what they are doing is murder plain and simple. That's not saying I don't think Hamas are wrong and should have their generals taken away for war crimes but the IDF should have exactly the same happen.
Only when I read your posts Stirling.
Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........ |
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| Stirlingsays 19 Aug 14 11.41pm |
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Quote Kingvagabond at 19 Aug 2014 11.32pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 19 Aug 2014 11.28pm
Do you ever get this cuckoo like sound going off in your head? Only when I read your posts Stirling. Then I suppose you're doubled f**ked.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 19 Aug 14 11.44pm |
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Please tell me Kingvagabond.....Which war are you aware of that followed the rules of 'proportional response'? There isn't one. You use an story from a TV series to describe how Israel should treat Hamas......Are you really sure you aren't hearing things?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Kingvagabond London 20 Aug 14 12.13am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 19 Aug 2014 11.44pm
Please tell me Kingvagabond.....Which war are you aware of that followed the rules of 'proportional response'? There isn't one. You use an story from a TV series to describe how Israel should treat Hamas......Are you really sure you aren't hearing things? Next time a soldier is shot in Belfast we should round up 1000 Northern Irish Catholics and shoot them. I mean after all, there is no such thing as a proportionate response and hell those people who will shoot at soldiers in Northern Island will be from those communities so it stands to reason if we want that to stop we should round up some people from those communities and kill them right? We'll stop the buggers shooting at us if we do that. Proportionate responses occur all the time Stirling.
Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........ |
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| Stirlingsays 20 Aug 14 12.23am |
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Quote Kingvagabond at 20 Aug 2014 12.13am
Proportionate responses occur all the time Stirling.
The UK was never in a war with Northern Ireland/Eire or even the IRA.....It's a sick joke that we originally started patrolling there to protect the Catholics. You keep going back to that conflict as if it has a connection to Israel/Hamas.....Have you read the thread yet? Doubt it somehow. I state again, you don't get proportional response in war. Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Aug 2014 12.23am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Kingvagabond London 20 Aug 14 12.40am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Aug 2014 12.23am
Quote Kingvagabond at 20 Aug 2014 12.13am
Proportionate responses occur all the time Stirling.
The UK was never in a war with Northern Ireland/Eire or even the IRA.....It's a sick joke that we originally started patrolling there to protect the Catholics. You keep going back to that conflict as if it has a connection to Israel/Hamas.....Have you read the thread yet? Doubt it somehow. I state again, you don't get proportional response in war. Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Aug 2014 12.23am) Before this post have I mentioned anything about Northern Ireland in this thread? You asked for an analogy based on fact and I gave what I thought was a decent one. I suppose if you want one where we were at war then how about the fact we only attacked Argentinian military personnel in the falklands and not bombed Buenos Aries?
Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........ |
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| Stirlingsays 20 Aug 14 1.20am |
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Quote Kingvagabond at 20 Aug 2014 12.40am
Before this post have I mentioned anything about Northern Ireland in this thread? You asked for an analogy based on fact and I gave what I thought was a decent one. I suppose if you want one where we were at war then how about the fact we only attacked Argentinian military personnel in the falklands and not bombed Buenos Aries? Again King, the 'Falkland's war' wasn't a war with Argentina. It was a conflict restricted to a zone around the Falklands.....Look it up. Wars don't contain proportional response.....Outside of the nuclear option....Unless you're Truman. I think I confused you with another poster on the NI repetition point....apologies.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Kingvagabond London 20 Aug 14 1.37am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Aug 2014 1.20am
Quote Kingvagabond at 20 Aug 2014 12.40am
Before this post have I mentioned anything about Northern Ireland in this thread? You asked for an analogy based on fact and I gave what I thought was a decent one. I suppose if you want one where we were at war then how about the fact we only attacked Argentinian military personnel in the falklands and not bombed Buenos Aries? Again King, the 'Falkland's war' wasn't a war with Argentina. It was a conflict restricted to a zone around the Falklands.....Look it up. Wars don't contain proportional response.....Outside of the nuclear option....Unless you're Truman. I think I confused you with another poster on the NI repetition point....apologies.
What a strange turn of events when a leftie uses the Falklands as a means of pointing out proportionate response and a rightie uses it as a means of diminishing it from being an actual war. However, to me a 'conflict' is separate to a war only in name. British servicemen died in the conflict just as Argentinian servicemen did. To me this is a war. As such I think its a valid example of a war where proportionate response was used. If you are unhappy to accept that then Iraq is an example. Afghanistan is an example. Generally any time where only military targets are attacked is an example. I fully accept that Hamas placing installations near schools is a war crime in of itself. However, why will you not accept airstrikes of those installations with full knowledge that innocent civilians will be killed is not a warcrime?
Part of Holmesdale Radio: The Next Generation Quote cornwalls palace at 24 Oct 2012 9.37am He was right!!!...and we killed him!!... poor Orpinton Eagles........ |
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| Stirlingsays 20 Aug 14 3.09am |
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Quote Kingvagabond at 20 Aug 2014 1.37am
Quote Stirlingsays at 20 Aug 2014 1.20am
Quote Kingvagabond at 20 Aug 2014 12.40am
Before this post have I mentioned anything about Northern Ireland in this thread? You asked for an analogy based on fact and I gave what I thought was a decent one. I suppose if you want one where we were at war then how about the fact we only attacked Argentinian military personnel in the falklands and not bombed Buenos Aries? Again King, the 'Falkland's war' wasn't a war with Argentina. It was a conflict restricted to a zone around the Falklands.....Look it up. Wars don't contain proportional response.....Outside of the nuclear option....Unless you're Truman. I think I confused you with another poster on the NI repetition point....apologies.
What a strange turn of events when a leftie uses the Falklands as a means of pointing out proportionate response and a rightie uses it as a means of diminishing it from being an actual war. However, to me a 'conflict' is separate to a war only in name. British servicemen died in the conflict just as Argentinian servicemen did. To me this is a war. As such I think its a valid example of a war where proportionate response was used. If you are unhappy to accept that then Iraq is an example. Afghanistan is an example. Generally any time where only military targets are attacked is an example. I fully accept that Hamas placing installations near schools is a war crime in of itself. However, why will you not accept airstrikes of those installations with full knowledge that innocent civilians will be killed is not a warcrime? Conflict and war are close but they are different things. Britain didn't declare war on Argentina we placed an exclusion zone around the Falklands. You declare war...It's official (though you do get variations)....Essentially you kill or capture the enemy when and where you find them.....Conflicts have conditions or restrictions within them...Hamas declared war on Israel and Israel have declared war on Hamas....I think I remember them making that statement years ago....We just have phrases of quiet and action. You are now using Iraq and Afghanistan as examples of 'proportional response'...Yes we declared war....'proportional response'?...Hmmmmm....We bombed the s*** out of those countries when we were fighting.....We bombed cities with civilians in them.....Like Israel we targeted military but knew civilians would die as well. We fought house to house in cities where civilians would die all the time......'proportional response' all depends upon what your objective is. As for your 'warcrime' point.....A part of me agrees with you.....However, if I accept that bombing knowing that civilians will be killed is a warcrime than I also have to accept that any battle that has taken place in a city also means most combatants committed warcrimes......I would have to accept that allied bombers during the war committed warcrimes dropping bombs on cities. Are you really committing to this point? It's almost a separate philosophical question in itself.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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