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 Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 10.38am |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
Of course. Let’s wait until the exhaustive investigation has happened. Surely China won’t object to that will they? Therein lies the problem. Whilst it's completely valid to criticise a system which shuns transparency, it's wrong to assume that means that there is something to hide. The Chinese take great offence at even the merest suggestion they are at fault. It seems deeply embedded in their culture. To get to the truth, we need to work within or around that. Confronting it head on will only lead to entrenchment.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 10.46am |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
What, you mean like Black Lives Matter and most other left wing movements throughout history? Populism can involve both left and right ideologies, although all the recent, and current, examples of those reaching positions of power, are authoritarian and from the right.
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Teddy Eagle  24 Jul 21 10.46am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Therein lies the problem. Whilst it's completely valid to criticise a system which shuns transparency, it's wrong to assume that means that there is something to hide. The Chinese take great offence at even the merest suggestion they are at fault. It seems deeply embedded in their culture. To get to the truth, we need to work within or around that. Confronting it head on will only lead to entrenchment. To be honest with a minimum of 4m deaths (and counting) and the financial and societal fallout still largely unknown their taking offence isn’t a prime concern.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 1.13pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
To be honest with a minimum of 4m deaths (and counting) and the financial and societal fallout still largely unknown their taking offence isn’t a prime concern. Of itself no. It is though if we want to get to the truth. We need their co-operation and if they simply raise the drawbridge we won't get it. Rumours will build and become regarded as truisms. Confrontation then becomes more likely. China and Chinese communism is a reality. We have to find a way to live with it.
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| Teddy Eagle 24 Jul 21 2.03pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Of itself no. It is though if we want to get to the truth. We need their co-operation and if they simply raise the drawbridge we won't get it. Rumours will build and become regarded as truisms. Confrontation then becomes more likely. China and Chinese communism is a reality. We have to find a way to live with it. But we're still only going to find out what they want found 0ut. Meanwhile the dreaded conspiracy theories will proliferate.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 4.40pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
But we're still only going to find out what they want found 0ut. Meanwhile the dreaded conspiracy theories will proliferate. That's the point. We need to out think them and find ways that they want to provide the information. Ridiculing them, or the WHO, will have the reverse effect. If there was an escape from the lab then ensuring it doesn't happen again is the priority. Not political point scoring. My guess is that many seasoned politicians and diplomats understood this perfectly well when the outbreak was known to have started there and tried to damp down the speculation. Only to be faced by the blunderbus of Trump seeking an excuse for his failure, whatever the long term consequences.
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| Teddy Eagle 24 Jul 21 7.25pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
That's the point. We need to out think them and find ways that they want to provide the information. Ridiculing them, or the WHO, will have the reverse effect. If there was an escape from the lab then ensuring it doesn't happen again is the priority. Not political point scoring. My guess is that many seasoned politicians and diplomats understood this perfectly well when the outbreak was known to have started there and tried to damp down the speculation. Only to be faced by the blunderbus of Trump seeking an excuse for his failure, whatever the long term consequences. Blaming Trump for everything is a complete cop out. They’ve constantly lied about the number of deaths; how was that Trump’s faults? Why are they going to come clean now?
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 9.53pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
Blaming Trump for everything is a complete cop out. They’ve constantly lied about the number of deaths; how was that Trump’s faults? Why are they going to come clean now? I am not though blaming Trump for anything they did, and still do. I am blaming him for what he did, which made the problem worse. His confrontational, diplomacy free approach was never going to produce the needed co-operation. It was only ever going to result in more determined stubbornness. It requires a careful, nuanced approach which flatters and enables them to retain "face" at home, and in the wider world. That also means managing public opinion in the west, especially in the USA. None of that is easy, but if we really want to discover the truth, and not just score points, then we need to try.
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| Teddy Eagle 24 Jul 21 10.21pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I am not though blaming Trump for anything they did, and still do. I am blaming him for what he did, which made the problem worse. His confrontational, diplomacy free approach was never going to produce the needed co-operation. It was only ever going to result in more determined stubbornness. It requires a careful, nuanced approach which flatters and enables them to retain "face" at home, and in the wider world. That also means managing public opinion in the west, especially in the USA. None of that is easy, but if we really want to discover the truth, and not just score points, then we need to try. We can try in the same way we’ve been trying since Marco Polo. Hasn’t got us very far has it?
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| Matov 24 Jul 21 10.54pm |
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They know it came from the lab in Wuhan. There was a VERY high-level defector from Chinese intelligence who flew into the US in February with the proof. Suspect he was probably feeding the CIA information way before that. This is all public domain by the way. Now I apologise for linking to the Mail but wanted to just show how this is all out there. The sources I trust more are various intelligence-themed blogs and they have been talking about this for a while.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Jul 21 11.06pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
We can try in the same way we’ve been trying since Marco Polo. Hasn’t got us very far has it? The world, including China, has moved a very long way from Marco Polo. I remember my father telling me stories about when he was in the Royal Navy out in China in the 1920s. We dominated then and even a 20-year-old rating demanded respect from the coolies. I have not been to mainland China, but I have spent quite a long time in Hong Kong, and was married there. I don't claim to be an expert in any way, but I do know that the mindset is very, very different. And that you don't cross "the party" and prosper. They also remember how my father's generation treated them. If we are going to ensure that another pandemic doesn't occur in the way that some fear this one did, even though that remains unproven speculation, then we need to work within that mindset, and not try to impose our own. We need to find ways to convince them that we truly want to help and not to shame them. We need to win a war, and to forget minor PR victories in side skirmishes.
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| Teddy Eagle 24 Jul 21 11.21pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The world, including China, has moved a very long way from Marco Polo. I remember my father telling me stories about when he was in the Royal Navy out in China in the 1920s. We dominated then and even a 20-year-old rating demanded respect from the coolies. I have not been to mainland China, but I have spent quite a long time in Hong Kong, and was married there. I don't claim to be an expert in any way, but I do know that the mindset is very, very different. And that you don't cross "the party" and prosper. They also remember how my father's generation treated them. If we are going to ensure that another pandemic doesn't occur in the way that some fear this one did, even though that remains unproven speculation, then we need to work within that mindset, and not try to impose our own. We need to find ways to convince them that we truly want to help and not to shame them. We need to win a war, and to forget minor PR victories in side skirmishes. It hasn’t moved very far since SARS and now we have this. If this was a natural occurrence then it makes no difference how much respect we try to show.
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