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eaglesdare 12 Aug 22 11.11am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
. When the risk is entirely mythical nonsense it isn’t the least cowardly. It’s responsible behaviour. Some elderly are very vulnerable. Do you think they can just be disregarded? Have a word with your grandmother. That’s not wise behaviour. No
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Teddy Eagle 12 Aug 22 11.53am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
As none of us here played any role in Trump’ election we also had no reason to either accept, or reject, him. All I have ever done is comment on the impact, the situation which led to his election and the attempt to subvert democracy in 2020. Brexit is something else. As I believe our Parliament is sovereign I was against us holding a vote in the first place, given it’s political purpose to remove the UKIP threat to the Tories. When Parliament triggered Acticle 50 that legitimised it, but this was a failure in my view. Collectively they believed it was wrong but failed to act. Brexit is accepted but that doesn’t mean its stupidity, which is increasingly obvious, mustn’t be pointed out and arguments made for reversal, or at least for a new “deal “ to be negotiated. In our representative Parliamentary democracy the only public vote that matters is at a GE. Any other is advisory. Once elected Parliament is sovereign. But that sovereignty doesn't extend to choosing their own party leader.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Aug 22 12.19pm | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
But that sovereignty doesn't extend to choosing their own party leader. Actually, I think it does. It's the Tory Party's convention that they allow their member's the final say in who leads them, and their MPs honour that. There is nothing at all to stop the House passing a vote of no confidence and for someone else, who can command confidence, taking over. It nearly happened in 2019 when the rebel Tories bravely stood up to Johnson's antics.
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W12 12 Aug 22 12.25pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Except it isn’t complete bollocks. It’s bourne out by my own wife’s current experience and my previous knowledge. Anyone who introduces the George Sorros nonsense into their argument has lost it, it’s total bs. Even though it’s on their own website? “Stupidity is knowing the truth, seeing the truth but still believing the lies. And that is more infectious than any other disease.” ~ Professor Richard Feynman
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Aug 22 12.26pm | |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
Like it or not the vote is for a party to get into power not an individual, they only run as the leader of said party. It's not one bloke... or lady of course sitting around doing everything themselves. They are the figurehead of that party's campaign. The Tories voting in the next PM is akin to a team sacking their manager and just putting in x person to run the first team for a while, it's a contingency. The Country will have the option to vote in another party at the next election and their leader with it. As for 'taking a stand', given your contributions over time on this site, I would think of all people you'd at least respect, understand or appreciate some people's decisions to act how they consider moral or correct as opposed to just accepting their fate with absolute submission even if you subjectively think they are talking nonsense. Your anti-democratic stance is quite typical of an imploding left these days. Edited by Nicholas91 (12 Aug 2022 9.48am) It just isn't. That it's a common perception doesn't make it so. The MP's could pass a vote of no confidence in who-ever is imposed on them by the members, if they chose to do so. I detest the current Tory Party, but greatly respect my local MP so may well vote for her as an individual, but not because she is a Tory. To suggest I am "anti-democratic" in some way beats me. I am a fierce advocate of genuine democracy and not the distorted populism we are being offered at present. I want to see PR introduced and coalitions to become the norm.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Aug 22 12.27pm | |
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Originally posted by W12
Even though it’s on their own website? “Stupidity is knowing the truth, seeing the truth but still believing the lies. And that is more infectious than any other disease.” ~ Professor Richard Feynman You show me what on their website you think supports your assertion. Then I will explain what it really means.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Aug 22 12.30pm | |
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Originally posted by Willo
Bait not taken. Bait not offered. Just observations. Those who see things differently need to ask themselves why that is. Guilty feelings perhaps?
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Teddy Eagle 12 Aug 22 12.35pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Actually, I think it does. It's the Tory Party's convention that they allow their member's the final say in who leads them, and their MPs honour that. There is nothing at all to stop the House passing a vote of no confidence and for someone else, who can command confidence, taking over. It nearly happened in 2019 when the rebel Tories bravely stood up to Johnson's antics. But according to your earlier posts that would only apply to the opposition not if the replacement was to be PM.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Aug 22 12.35pm | |
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Originally posted by cryrst
Why is it in their interest then. Most remainers are pretty much stuck on the fact that they arnt affected by brexit only us! Disruptions to trade and needless regulations and restrictions serve no-one. The EU though is more than simply a trading organisation. As the USA declines, China grows and Russia threatens it is an ever more important counterweight. Which we, and they, need us to be a part of.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Aug 22 12.38pm | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
But according to your earlier posts that would only apply to the opposition not if the replacement was to be PM. Sorry, but I don't follow that argument. I think it applies to who-ever becomes PM.
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Teddy Eagle 12 Aug 22 1.04pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Sorry, but I don't follow that argument. I think it applies to who-ever becomes PM. So what's wrong with the current system? The members vote for the leader and the MPs can put in a vote of no confidence if they don't agree.
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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 12 Aug 22 1.22pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
It just isn't. That it's a common perception doesn't make it so. The MP's could pass a vote of no confidence in who-ever is imposed on them by the members, if they chose to do so. I detest the current Tory Party, but greatly respect my local MP so may well vote for her as an individual, but not because she is a Tory. To suggest I am "anti-democratic" in some way beats me. I am a fierce advocate of genuine democracy and not the distorted populism we are being offered at present. I want to see PR introduced and coalitions to become the norm. But they haven't successfully gone about this have they? Gripe about that at will however that is the case and the democratic process as it stands. I myself would consider proportional representation a 'more' democratic avenue but as to it's effectiveness, I feel reluctant to asset any real conviction in declaring. There is a huge difference between saying 'I would prefer x, y and z' or challenging ideals, to constantly launching and then forever haranguing everyone else with campaigns against individuals, insinuating that your agenda, political and world views should be installed without dispute or obstacle. Especially when they begin to translate as something akin to 'the mad cat lady' on the Simpsons - that communicates as 'anti-democratic'. I've already addressed this with another post, not to say I am correct and must be listened to, it is after all just my subjective opinion but a real bugbear of late. Anywhere in history, anywhere, anyone, who asserts, expresses and Lord have mercy has gotten to power with such a mentality of 'this is how it should be, I'm right and everyone else is wrong' has proved absolutely disastrous and ruinous for democratic processes. Proclaiming yourself to be a 'fierce advocate of genuine democracy' and some sort of staunch democratic defender is laughable given you will only accept it so long as the results favour your preferences: 'I hate the fact X are in power','I think this X govt./PM is (insert expletive) and would prefer' vs. 'It shouldn't be X, all avenues must be explored to undo this and ensure my preference gets done'. And yes, in the main, people may well vote for individuals however we would not have phrases such as 'Red or Blue Wall' nor would we have parliamentary seats spending long periods without changing if people did not hold allegiance to or trust for parties first and foremost. It's not coincidence, this is politics not roulette. Individuals will always have to align with the ideological stance of the party. Admittedly, they are much looser and closer together nowadays but a minority proportion of peoples will vote because 'I like that guy'. If your assertion were theoretically true, we'd have a different record of PM's from across the political spectrum as opposed to 'Labour in power, Tories in power x a bilion' since day dot.
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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