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steeleye20 Croydon 18 Feb 22 3.56pm | |
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The EU is far more democratic than the UK, as are many other countries. The UK has been sliding down the democratic ladder for years, and climbing the corruption league at the same time.
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Spiderman Horsham 18 Feb 22 3.59pm | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
The EU is far more democratic than the UK, as are many other countries. The UK has been sliding down the democratic ladder for years, and climbing the corruption league at the same time. So are all EU decision maker’s democratically elected? Can you expand on why theUK is sliding down the democratic ladder? Is it because Labour can’t win an election? Edited by Spiderman (18 Feb 2022 4.02pm)
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silvertop Portishead 18 Feb 22 3.59pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
If the EU had remained nothing more than a trading organisation to try and ensure the easy flow of goods between its members, then I suspect we would not be having this discussion. But its over-riding reason for being was as a political project. That is what we voted on and Leave won. It's done. Over. There are no more arguments for staying in. And to even think that is insanity. On the point that it is "done", of course: but Remoaners remain entitled to say we told you so. Surely policy is based on cures for things that are wrong. Standard checks and balances require free speech to ensure this happens. On the separate point that staying in is "insanity", given there has so far been nothing to support the arguments that leaving has caused any real improvements - in fact, quite the reverse - I am struggling to understand the absence of sanity. If you are saying that another referendum is "insane" then that is another question entirely. It is a thought that Brexiteers shudder to contemplate given the shift of demographics since the referendum, the distance from the migration crisis of 2015, the current geo-politics where being inside the tent suddenly has a distinct attraction, the broken promises/lies on NHS dividends etc., the fact that many leading "Brexiteers" (and I include our dear PM) have been found out as insincere and just using it as a vehicle for their own promotion, and the fact that the pond life who crept from their anoxic existence in 2016 to vote leave in order to "kick out the Muslims" etc. will probably stay at home... as they tend to at any other election. As I have said elsewhere, there are many who continue to hold the view on sensible grounds that Brexit will eventually work and I hope they are right. However, once you take out the rubbish bedfellows who only just got you over the line, I am pretty sure you will be left with a far smaller (losing) chunk of people willing to cast that vote again. Thus, YouGov poll end Jan this year. In the two years since the UK left the European Union, to what extent, if at all, do you think the UK has benefitted? A great deal 7% Under Theresa May there was a majority parliament not reflecting the will of he people. Now, there is precisely the same save the other way round. So where is the insanity?
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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 18 Feb 22 4.21pm | |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
So are all EU decision maker’s democratically elected? Can you expand on why theUK is sliding down the democratic ladder? Is it because Labour can’t win an election? Edited by Spiderman (18 Feb 2022 4.02pm) The fact we still use FPTP means we're already one of the least democratic;
Nearly every other country would end up with a shade of blue.
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steeleye20 Croydon 18 Feb 22 4.29pm | |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
So are all EU decision maker’s democratically elected? Can you expand on why theUK is sliding down the democratic ladder? Is it because Labour can’t win an election? Edited by Spiderman (18 Feb 2022 4.02pm) A majority government of 80 seats elected by only 36% of its voters. Unelected institutions enable its laws. The House of Lords. The Monarchy. Its rigged by fiddling electoral boundaries its where you vote from not an actual majority, over 10 years this is a real game-changer. And proposals to dis-enfranchise voters who are less likely to vote tory are on the way. The UK smells tbh.
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georgenorman 18 Feb 22 4.32pm | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
The EU is far more democratic than the UK, as are many other countries. The UK has been sliding down the democratic ladder for years, and climbing the corruption league at the same time. I suppose to a communist the EU might appear democratic. If you can't elect and dismiss the people that make the laws that govern you, then you do not live in a democracy. Edited by georgenorman (18 Feb 2022 6.38pm)
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steeleye20 Croydon 18 Feb 22 4.42pm | |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
I suppose to a communist the EU might appear democratic. If you can't elect and dismiss the pople that make the laws that govern you, then you do not live in a democracy. Edited by georgenorman (18 Feb 2022 4.33pm) That's the UK for you.
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cryrst The garden of England 18 Feb 22 4.47pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
On the point that it is "done", of course: but Remoaners remain entitled to say we told you so. Surely policy is based on cures for things that are wrong. Standard checks and balances require free speech to ensure this happens. On the separate point that staying in is "insanity", given there has so far been nothing to support the arguments that leaving has caused any real improvements - in fact, quite the reverse - I am struggling to understand the absence of sanity. If you are saying that another referendum is "insane" then that is another question entirely. It is a thought that Brexiteers shudder to contemplate given the shift of demographics since the referendum, the distance from the migration crisis of 2015, the current geo-politics where being inside the tent suddenly has a distinct attraction, the broken promises/lies on NHS dividends etc., the fact that many leading "Brexiteers" (and I include our dear PM) have been found out as insincere and just using it as a vehicle for their own promotion, and the fact that the pond life who crept from their anoxic existence in 2016 to vote leave in order to "kick out the Muslims" etc. will probably stay at home... as they tend to at any other election. As I have said elsewhere, there are many who continue to hold the view on sensible grounds that Brexit will eventually work and I hope they are right. However, once you take out the rubbish bedfellows who only just got you over the line, I am pretty sure you will be left with a far smaller (losing) chunk of people willing to cast that vote again. Thus, YouGov poll end Jan this year. In the two years since the UK left the European Union, to what extent, if at all, do you think the UK has benefitted? A great deal 7% Under Theresa May there was a majority parliament not reflecting the will of he people. Now, there is precisely the same save the other way round. So where is the insanity? Btw that's only 89%.
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Matov 18 Feb 22 4.48pm | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
2016 - Referendum vote. Leave won. How many more votes do you want? 4 decisive elections in 3 years all delivered wins for the Leave side. If a major political party wants to make a manifesto promise to take us back into the EU if it wins, then let it make it. If a major political party or movement wants to campaign for another referendum on rejoining then let them do so. But the decision of 2016 has been confirmed via 3 separate electrical processes. There has to be a line in the sand over this, at least for the next couple of decades. To revisit it over and over does nothing other than cause even more division than we have at the moment.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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Stirlingsays 18 Feb 22 4.49pm | |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
The fact we still use FPTP means we're already one of the least democratic;
Nearly every other country would end up with a shade of blue.
This is always a valid criticism of FPTP. However, just looking at Italy there are obvious flaws with proportional representation, though it's obviously fairer. There are probably better compromising alternatives but the country rejected one of them. It's like political philosophies, in practice they all have flaws.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Spiderman Horsham 18 Feb 22 4.50pm | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
That's the UK for you. Isn’t that your beloved EU as well?
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Spiderman Horsham 18 Feb 22 4.53pm | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
A majority government of 80 seats elected by only 36% of its voters. Unelected institutions enable its laws. The House of Lords. The Monarchy. Its rigged by fiddling electoral boundaries its where you vote from not an actual majority, over 10 years this is a real game-changer. And proposals to dis-enfranchise voters who are less likely to vote tory are on the way. The UK smells tbh. So are all the EU decision makers democratically elected? You didn’t answer that Edited by Spiderman (18 Feb 2022 4.53pm)
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