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steeleye20 Flag Croydon 18 Feb 22 3.56pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

The EU is far more democratic than the UK, as are many other countries.

The UK has been sliding down the democratic ladder for years, and climbing the corruption league at the same time.


 

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Spiderman Flag Horsham 18 Feb 22 3.59pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

The EU is far more democratic than the UK, as are many other countries.

The UK has been sliding down the democratic ladder for years, and climbing the corruption league at the same time.


So are all EU decision maker’s democratically elected? Can you expand on why theUK is sliding down the democratic ladder? Is it because Labour can’t win an election?

Edited by Spiderman (18 Feb 2022 4.02pm)

 

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silvertop Flag Portishead 18 Feb 22 3.59pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Matov


Only if you take the position that cowardice is better than courage. Yes, if you wanted a quiet life and nothing to change, then voting Remain made perfect sense.

If the EU had remained nothing more than a trading organisation to try and ensure the easy flow of goods between its members, then I suspect we would not be having this discussion. But its over-riding reason for being was as a political project. That is what we voted on and Leave won.

It's done. Over. There are no more arguments for staying in. And to even think that is insanity.

On the point that it is "done", of course: but Remoaners remain entitled to say we told you so. Surely policy is based on cures for things that are wrong. Standard checks and balances require free speech to ensure this happens.

On the separate point that staying in is "insanity", given there has so far been nothing to support the arguments that leaving has caused any real improvements - in fact, quite the reverse - I am struggling to understand the absence of sanity.

If you are saying that another referendum is "insane" then that is another question entirely. It is a thought that Brexiteers shudder to contemplate given the shift of demographics since the referendum, the distance from the migration crisis of 2015, the current geo-politics where being inside the tent suddenly has a distinct attraction, the broken promises/lies on NHS dividends etc., the fact that many leading "Brexiteers" (and I include our dear PM) have been found out as insincere and just using it as a vehicle for their own promotion, and the fact that the pond life who crept from their anoxic existence in 2016 to vote leave in order to "kick out the Muslims" etc. will probably stay at home... as they tend to at any other election.

As I have said elsewhere, there are many who continue to hold the view on sensible grounds that Brexit will eventually work and I hope they are right. However, once you take out the rubbish bedfellows who only just got you over the line, I am pretty sure you will be left with a far smaller (losing) chunk of people willing to cast that vote again.

Thus, YouGov poll end Jan this year. In the two years since the UK left the European Union, to what extent, if at all, do you think the UK has benefitted?

A great deal 7%
Somewhat 17%
Not very much 28%
Not at all 37%

Under Theresa May there was a majority parliament not reflecting the will of he people.

Now, there is precisely the same save the other way round.

So where is the insanity?

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 18 Feb 22 4.21pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

So are all EU decision maker’s democratically elected? Can you expand on why theUK is sliding down the democratic ladder? Is it because Labour can’t win an election?

Edited by Spiderman (18 Feb 2022 4.02pm)

The fact we still use FPTP means we're already one of the least democratic;


If 25% of the population want to paint a wall sky blue
20% of them want it dark blue
20% of them want it royal blue
35% of them want it red


We'd paint the wall red.

Nearly every other country would end up with a shade of blue.


Most people's vote in this country is completely worthless - there are a handful of swing seats which decide the outcome for the whole country. It's barely democracy.

 

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steeleye20 Flag Croydon 18 Feb 22 4.29pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

So are all EU decision maker’s democratically elected? Can you expand on why theUK is sliding down the democratic ladder? Is it because Labour can’t win an election?

Edited by Spiderman (18 Feb 2022 4.02pm)

A majority government of 80 seats elected by only 36% of its voters.

Unelected institutions enable its laws.

The House of Lords.

The Monarchy.

Its rigged by fiddling electoral boundaries its where you vote from not an actual majority, over 10 years this is a real game-changer.

And proposals to dis-enfranchise voters who are less likely to vote tory are on the way.

The UK smells tbh.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards georgenorman Flag 18 Feb 22 4.32pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

The EU is far more democratic than the UK, as are many other countries.

The UK has been sliding down the democratic ladder for years, and climbing the corruption league at the same time.

I suppose to a communist the EU might appear democratic. If you can't elect and dismiss the people that make the laws that govern you, then you do not live in a democracy.

Edited by georgenorman (18 Feb 2022 6.38pm)

 

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steeleye20 Flag Croydon 18 Feb 22 4.42pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

I suppose to a communist the EU might appear democratic. If you can't elect and dismiss the pople that make the laws that govern you, then you do not live in a democracy.

Edited by georgenorman (18 Feb 2022 4.33pm)

That's the UK for you.

 

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cryrst Flag The garden of England 18 Feb 22 4.47pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

On the point that it is "done", of course: but Remoaners remain entitled to say we told you so. Surely policy is based on cures for things that are wrong. Standard checks and balances require free speech to ensure this happens.

On the separate point that staying in is "insanity", given there has so far been nothing to support the arguments that leaving has caused any real improvements - in fact, quite the reverse - I am struggling to understand the absence of sanity.

If you are saying that another referendum is "insane" then that is another question entirely. It is a thought that Brexiteers shudder to contemplate given the shift of demographics since the referendum, the distance from the migration crisis of 2015, the current geo-politics where being inside the tent suddenly has a distinct attraction, the broken promises/lies on NHS dividends etc., the fact that many leading "Brexiteers" (and I include our dear PM) have been found out as insincere and just using it as a vehicle for their own promotion, and the fact that the pond life who crept from their anoxic existence in 2016 to vote leave in order to "kick out the Muslims" etc. will probably stay at home... as they tend to at any other election.

As I have said elsewhere, there are many who continue to hold the view on sensible grounds that Brexit will eventually work and I hope they are right. However, once you take out the rubbish bedfellows who only just got you over the line, I am pretty sure you will be left with a far smaller (losing) chunk of people willing to cast that vote again.

Thus, YouGov poll end Jan this year. In the two years since the UK left the European Union, to what extent, if at all, do you think the UK has benefitted?

A great deal 7%
Somewhat 17%
Not very much 28%
Not at all 37%

Under Theresa May there was a majority parliament not reflecting the will of he people.

Now, there is precisely the same save the other way round.

So where is the insanity?

Btw that's only 89%.
Wheres the other 11%
I will add in a Somewhat ironic way 52% of those numbers are on the side of it being positive

 

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Matov Flag 18 Feb 22 4.48pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop


So where is the insanity?

2016 - Referendum vote. Leave won.
2017 - General Election. The top two parties who polled over 80% of the votes - Both promising to honour Brexit result.
2019 - European Elections. UKIP are the top UK party and within the EU parliament are joint top of having the most MEP's.
2019 - General Election - Tories win an 80 seat majority on a central promise of 'Get Brexit Done'.

How many more votes do you want? 4 decisive elections in 3 years all delivered wins for the Leave side.

If a major political party wants to make a manifesto promise to take us back into the EU if it wins, then let it make it.

If a major political party or movement wants to campaign for another referendum on rejoining then let them do so.

But the decision of 2016 has been confirmed via 3 separate electrical processes. There has to be a line in the sand over this, at least for the next couple of decades. To revisit it over and over does nothing other than cause even more division than we have at the moment.


 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Stirlingsays Flag 18 Feb 22 4.49pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

The fact we still use FPTP means we're already one of the least democratic;


If 25% of the population want to paint a wall sky blue
20% of them want it dark blue
20% of them want it royal blue
35% of them want it red


We'd paint the wall red.

Nearly every other country would end up with a shade of blue.


Most people's vote in this country is completely worthless - there are a handful of swing seats which decide the outcome for the whole country. It's barely democracy.

This is always a valid criticism of FPTP.

However, just looking at Italy there are obvious flaws with proportional representation, though it's obviously fairer.

There are probably better compromising alternatives but the country rejected one of them.

It's like political philosophies, in practice they all have flaws.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Spiderman Flag Horsham 18 Feb 22 4.50pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

That's the UK for you.

Isn’t that your beloved EU as well?

 

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Spiderman Flag Horsham 18 Feb 22 4.53pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

A majority government of 80 seats elected by only 36% of its voters.

Unelected institutions enable its laws.

The House of Lords.

The Monarchy.

Its rigged by fiddling electoral boundaries its where you vote from not an actual majority, over 10 years this is a real game-changer.

And proposals to dis-enfranchise voters who are less likely to vote tory are on the way.

The UK smells tbh.

So are all the EU decision makers democratically elected? You didn’t answer that
Point

Edited by Spiderman (18 Feb 2022 4.53pm)

 

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