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General Election 2017
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hedgehog50  Croydon 06 May 17 10.15am |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Maybe it is because the Tory working class media machine and the Sun's successful influence at all elections doesn't get a look in on Merseyside. Some people think about politics for 4 minutes a week and never watch or listen to any politicians talk on TV. They cannot be influenced by the Sun front page then. What contempt this shows for ordinary men and women who apparently are incapable of making up their own minds as to who they want to represent them in Parliament.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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 Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 06 May 17 10.23am |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
What contempt this shows for ordinary men and women who apparently are incapable of making up their own minds as to who they want to represent them in Parliament. No. People are being made to work longer and harder; throw in stressed-out kids to deal with once back indoors as well and you have a whole audience of knackered brains who are just too worn out to do any critical thinking. Do you still work Hedgehog? Travel up to town every day? If you did, you'd see thousands of those shattered faces all around you day in, day out, staring at their devices / reading the Metro / being advertised at by unavoidable video billboards..... If it didn't actually work, why would people spend so much time, effort and money on promoting their agenda through the media? Just a thought.
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 06 May 17 10.42am |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
No. People are being made to work longer and harder; throw in stressed-out kids to deal with once back indoors as well and you have a whole audience of knackered brains who are just too worn out to do any critical thinking. Do you still work Hedgehog? Travel up to town every day? If you did, you'd see thousands of those shattered faces all around you day in, day out, staring at their devices / reading the Metro / being advertised at by unavoidable video billboards..... If it didn't actually work, why would people spend so much time, effort and money on promoting their agenda through the media? Just a thought. Absolutely spot on. In a democracy, the role of the media is supposed to be holding politicians to account. If you believe this is true how can you possibly deny that the media influences public opinion? Saying that, the majority of the media in this country wants people to view politics as the X factor, like some detached circus where we ape and ogle at recognisable faces, boo and jeer at others, with little or no interest in actually critical, brave debate.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 06 May 17 10.53am |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
So what is Labour's purpose and future then? Like the Liberal Party after World War I? A few MPs pandering to minority extremist views? A perpetual protest group using extra-parliamentary means? Our politicians are accountable to Parliament and ultimately, the electorate. I agree that this accountability has been diluted by the existence of regional 'parliaments' and the non-democratic EU - but at least we are freeing ourselves from the latter. Edited by hedgehog50 (06 May 2017 9.18am) Accountability has nothing to do with regional parliaments. Accountability is about individuals critically regarding their public servants: reading what they promise to do, and holding their feet to the fire if they don't do it. I know I'm biased here but we can see this isnt happening with the current government. They made manifesto proposals to end the deficit by 2015, and its barely moved. They said theyd fund the NHS with money saved from brussels, which is a lie. Both her and Cameron promised to be compassionate conservatives, yet wage decline in this country is in its worst decade since the 1780s, and theyve cut disability benefits and funding to homeless and local community groups, something they never said theyd do. People are so disengaged from this level of accountability that the Tories are going in to an election with pretty much no policy basis, and yet they know they can win comfortably. I think this is pretty much unprecedented in my lifetime, that a party has so heavily relied on a series of repetitive meaningless slogans to win a democratic election. It's post modern politics, and depressingly its working.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 06 May 17 10.55am |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
What contempt this shows for ordinary men and women who apparently are incapable of making up their own minds as to who they want to represent them in Parliament. It is common knowledge the sun influences a large proportion of voters. It's bought by 4 million and read by 10 million. Big damaging headlines on the front and a pathetic amount of current affairs in column inches on page 2, which is ignored as its opposite bikini girl on page 3. I never said all people, all working class, or all scousers. It just needs enough to swing the result, and it can.
COYP |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 06 May 17 11.01am |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
What contempt this shows for ordinary men and women who apparently are incapable of making up their own minds as to who they want to represent them in Parliament. Why do you think May and Trump go for short, repetitive slogans then? It works, that's why. And it's not just as simple as being interested in making up their own minds. Some are just not that interested in politics so are influenced by short doses of political communication.
COYP |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 06 May 17 11.17am |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Accountability has nothing to do with regional parliaments. Accountability is about individuals critically regarding their public servants: reading what they promise to do, and holding their feet to the fire if they don't do it. I know I'm biased here but we can see this isnt happening with the current government. They made manifesto proposals to end the deficit by 2015, and its barely moved. They said theyd fund the NHS with money saved from brussels, which is a lie. Both her and Cameron promised to be compassionate conservatives, yet wage decline in this country is in its worst decade since the 1780s, and theyve cut disability benefits and funding to homeless and local community groups, something they never said theyd do. People are so disengaged from this level of accountability that the Tories are going in to an election with pretty much no policy basis, and yet they know they can win comfortably. I think this is pretty much unprecedented in my lifetime, that a party has so heavily relied on a series of repetitive meaningless slogans to win a democratic election. It's post modern politics, and depressingly its working. The £350 million per week saved after Brexit to go to the NHS was what COULD BE DONE, by someone who is a foreign minister, not PM or health secretary. Even Farage said it was bollox. It's also, as we all know, not £350 mil if you take into the account the rebate of nearly half that they tell you where to spend it. I agree with a lot of what you've said though. I voted Lib dem in 2010 for diluted conservatism, Tory in 2015, I now probably HAVE TO vote Tory now, which is how I'm sure many feel. I have and would vote Labour, not that it makes much difference if in a safe blue seat, but in the last 7 years? The unions blew it getting Ed Moribund in. Should've been David. He was their only hope. Now it's even worse. Without the apocalypse there will never be a socialist government. The thing is, many lefties wanted an election to decide Brexit/referendum 2. Now there is one Labour are shy in Brexit whilst the Tories are scooping it all up. Labour need to embrace Brexit and take some ownership of it and what they can offer. Without that they're toast. Some of us want to hear about policy but the numbers aren't going to swing it. Brexit will, but too many labour MPs won't drop their remain ideology. Better look for alternative employment for when the parachute money runs out then.
COYP |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 06 May 17 11.53am |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
The £350 million per week saved after Brexit to go to the NHS was what COULD BE DONE, by someone who is a foreign minister, not PM or health secretary. Even Farage said it was bollox. It's also, as we all know, not £350 mil if you take into the account the rebate of nearly half that they tell you where to spend it. I agree with a lot of what you've said though. I voted Lib dem in 2010 for diluted conservatism, Tory in 2015, I now probably HAVE TO vote Tory now, which is how I'm sure many feel. I have and would vote Labour, not that it makes much difference if in a safe blue seat, but in the last 7 years? The unions blew it getting Ed Moribund in. Should've been David. He was their only hope. Now it's even worse. Without the apocalypse there will never be a socialist government. The thing is, many lefties wanted an election to decide Brexit/referendum 2. Now there is one Labour are shy in Brexit whilst the Tories are scooping it all up. Labour need to embrace Brexit and take some ownership of it and what they can offer. Without that they're toast. Some of us want to hear about policy but the numbers aren't going to swing it. Brexit will, but too many labour MPs won't drop their remain ideology. Better look for alternative employment for when the parachute money runs out then.
Compare that to the Lib Dems who want to remain, the Tories, who everyday are further alienating the 27 EU delegates who they need to find agreement with to put Brecit in place. The idea of May convincing them after the past week or so? I mean come on, she's so weak it's embarrassing. But Labour's problem is, that they are the main opposition but have been regularly declared unelectable by the British media. If you have the main opposition constantly degraded as unelectable, and unable to get their message out, you are well on your way to authoritarianism.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 06 May 17 11.55am |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Why do you think May and Trump go for short, repetitive slogans then? It works, that's why. And it's not just as simple as being interested in making up their own minds. Some are just not that interested in politics so are influenced by short doses of political communication. So how do you propose to run elections then? No electioning allowed? No statements of policy however, short or long? Banning of newspapers during the campaign? How would you structure it so that the electorate are not duped as you think by the Sun etc.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| legaleagle 06 May 17 12.16pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
So how do you propose to run elections then? No electioning allowed? No statements of policy however, short or long? Banning of newspapers during the campaign? How would you structure it so that the electorate are not duped as you think by the Sun etc. Stronger rules guarding against concentrations of ownership within the media,for a start.
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| Stirlingsays 06 May 17 12.24pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
There is a shocking lack of accountability for the actions of our politicians, left and right. Most people on this thread probably have no idea what burnham has ever done as a politician, but are content to laud him as a good one. Is that first paragraph a comedy post? Good second paragraph but come on....Getting involved in politics without gaining power is little more than talking for the fun of it. I know the 'progressive left' are divorced from reality...and I really don't mind that...but when they take over the main opposition it's a real problem for working class people in the country. The hard left just end up making life worse for the poorest....still they aren't the types to take the responsibility and instead just finger point instead of address the real deficiencies.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Y Ddraig Goch  In The Crowd 06 May 17 12.24pm |
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Originally posted by serial thriller
Compare that to the Lib Dems who want to remain, the Tories, who everyday are further alienating the 27 EU delegates who they need to find agreement with to put Brecit in place. The idea of May convincing them after the past week or so? I mean come on, she's so weak it's embarrassing. But Labour's problem is, that they are the main opposition but have been regularly declared unelectable by the British media. If you have the main opposition constantly degraded as unelectable, and unable to get their message out, you are well on your way to authoritarianism. What is soft Brexit? What is hard Brexit? Hard Brexit to me would be no deal at all. Anything else by definition is surely "soft"? No party can tell us what their post Brexit deal will look like. It is heavily dependant on the EU too. As for the 27, the current noises coming from Juncker reflect the reasons why I nearly voted leave. He is stirring the pot and ironically, probably strengthening May's position. Norway, Holland and probably a few others will not want us to just walk away. Even France, 10% unemployment! even higher amongst the youth, with a diminishing GDP don't want a bad deal.
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