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steve1984 16 Dec 18 2.08pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays If they don't like it, live in a country that identifies you in that sense. One moment you say there's no authoritarianism where there is personal choice. The next you propose that I move abroad if I disagree (with you).
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steve1984 16 Dec 18 2.08pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

If they don't like it, live in a country that identifies you in that sense.

One moment you say there's no authoritarianism where there is personal choice. The next you propose that I move abroad if I disagree (with you).

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Stirlingsays 16 Dec 18 2.11pm
Originally posted by steve1984 But you argue that the most important measure of allegiance is ethnicity. I believe that there are many other important factors that influence allegiance. Yes a state can do this. But can it do so without provoking conflict with a large number of its own citizens and / or with the citizens of neighboring countries? After WWII about 250,000 ethnically German Hungarians were forced to leave Hungary and 10,000 were killed. There remains a large number of swabians living in Hungary. Some have retained their Swabian culture and others have become completely integrated. But all of them have a Hungarian identity. Perhaps, perhaps not. For Israel, if it doesn't maintain a significant majority of Jews in control of most if not all the important positions in Israel.....then Israel as a state for Jews isn't going to be around for very long. Israel wasn't built on fairness.....It won't continue on fairness.....Being fair, when you are surrounded and outnumbered by enemies is nothing short of insanity. They are a Sparta state and exist in a position of continual struggle. It is what it is. Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Dec 2018 2.14pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

16 Dec 18 2.11pm

Originally posted by steve1984

But you argue that the most important measure of allegiance is ethnicity. I believe that there are many other important factors that influence allegiance.

Yes a state can do this. But can it do so without provoking conflict with a large number of its own citizens and / or with the citizens of neighboring countries?

After WWII about 250,000 ethnically German Hungarians were forced to leave Hungary and 10,000 were killed. There remains a large number of swabians living in Hungary. Some have retained their Swabian culture and others have become completely integrated. But all of them have a Hungarian identity.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

For Israel, if it doesn't maintain a significant majority of Jews in control of most if not all the important positions in Israel.....then Israel as a state for Jews isn't going to be around for very long.

Israel wasn't built on fairness.....It won't continue on fairness.....Being fair, when you are surrounded and outnumbered by enemies is nothing short of insanity. They are a Sparta state and exist in a position of continual struggle.

It is what it is.

Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Dec 2018 2.14pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 16 Dec 18 2.21pm
Originally posted by steve1984 One moment you say there's no authoritarianism where there is personal choice. The next you propose that I move abroad if I disagree (with you). There is no authoritarianism because you have that choice.....You have the option to leave if you don't like it...that is choice. A person, as of now, would have the citizen/subject requirements to fulfill hence you have the option of choosing your allegiance to the UK....It is not forced.....indeed you delighted in telling me how your foreign wife used the system....as it currently stands to take the benefits of being British without having any allegiance to it. You stand for that, I don't. Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Dec 2018 2.24pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

16 Dec 18 2.21pm

Originally posted by steve1984

One moment you say there's no authoritarianism where there is personal choice. The next you propose that I move abroad if I disagree (with you).

There is no authoritarianism because you have that choice.....You have the option to leave if you don't like it...that is choice.

A person, as of now, would have the citizen/subject requirements to fulfill hence you have the option of choosing your allegiance to the UK....It is not forced.....indeed you delighted in telling me how your foreign wife used the system....as it currently stands to take the benefits of being British without having any allegiance to it.

You stand for that, I don't.

Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Dec 2018 2.24pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Hrolf The Ganger 16 Dec 18 2.23pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays 'Becoming' English is murky for the very reason that while ethnicity may be an aspect for many in having an allegiance to a country it is by no means exclusive. If you allegiance to Britain/England is strong then that cultural aspect can also lead to acceptance. Many people who consider themselves English have inheritance from elsewhere. I've never stated a rejection of that. What I have always made clear is that it's a numbers game and that those with a genetic heritage to elsewhere but a strong self identity of only English are quite rare. Hence they are a dilution for English national identity if their numbers get out of control. We reached that threshold in several cities and towns in England some time ago....London is am example of a city like that and Savile town is an example of a town. It's only going to get worse. In terms of violence The Proud boys only exist as a counter to the violence and de-platforming by Antifa (who are a recognised domestic terrorist group) to both the right and centralists in the US. Without Antifa to start trouble they wouldn't be involved in violence. I disavow any Proud boys that deliberately start violence or are involved in violence that isn't in response to those incidents. Outside of that the Proud boys are a group that celebrates 'western chauvinism' the 'west is best' mindset and I wholeheartedly support that. It has female versions and is open to all ethnicities....despite the progressives frequently lying about them. If we put aside the 60's and 70's, where casual racism was common and presumably linked to the novelty value of minorities when they were small in number, it would be true to say that some ethnic groups have far less problem integrating with English culture than others and meet with far less resentment from the existing population. Indians, for example, do not have the issues with racism, religion, and crime that say Muslims or Afro Caribbeans do. Therefore, one can only conclude that these groups exhibit characteristics that make integration more difficult or that are more likely to cause resentment. This is a two way street. If you want acceptance as an ethnic group then as a group you have to give a little. In other words, minorities have to take responsibility for their integration and stop blaming the White man for racism if he objects to undesirable culture invading the country. For it's part, I don't think it is possible to imagine a country that is doing more to welcome immigrants.
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Hrolf The Ganger

16 Dec 18 2.23pm

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Originally posted by Stirlingsays

'Becoming' English is murky for the very reason that while ethnicity may be an aspect for many in having an allegiance to a country it is by no means exclusive.

If you allegiance to Britain/England is strong then that cultural aspect can also lead to acceptance. Many people who consider themselves English have inheritance from elsewhere. I've never stated a rejection of that.

What I have always made clear is that it's a numbers game and that those with a genetic heritage to elsewhere but a strong self identity of only English are quite rare. Hence they are a dilution for English national identity if their numbers get out of control.

We reached that threshold in several cities and towns in England some time ago....London is am example of a city like that and Savile town is an example of a town.

It's only going to get worse.

In terms of violence The Proud boys only exist as a counter to the violence and de-platforming by Antifa (who are a recognised domestic terrorist group) to both the right and centralists in the US. Without Antifa to start trouble they wouldn't be involved in violence.

I disavow any Proud boys that deliberately start violence or are involved in violence that isn't in response to those incidents.

Outside of that the Proud boys are a group that celebrates 'western chauvinism' the 'west is best' mindset and I wholeheartedly support that. It has female versions and is open to all ethnicities....despite the progressives frequently lying about them.

If we put aside the 60's and 70's, where casual racism was common and presumably linked to the novelty value of minorities when they were small in number, it would be true to say that some ethnic groups have far less problem integrating with English culture than others and meet with far less resentment from the existing population. Indians, for example, do not have the issues with racism, religion, and crime that say Muslims or Afro Caribbeans do. Therefore, one can only conclude that these groups exhibit characteristics that make integration more difficult or that are more likely to cause resentment.
This is a two way street. If you want acceptance as an ethnic group then as a group you have to give a little.
In other words, minorities have to take responsibility for their integration and stop blaming the White man for racism if he objects to undesirable culture invading the country. For it's part, I don't think it is possible to imagine a country that is doing more to welcome immigrants.

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Stirlingsays 16 Dec 18 2.27pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger If we put aside the 60's and 70's, where casual racism was common and presumably linked to the novelty value of minorities when they were small in number, it would be true to say that some ethnic groups have far less problem integrating with English culture than others and meet with far less resentment from the existing population. Indians, for example, do not have the issues with racism, religion, and crime that say Muslims or Afro Caribbeans do. Therefore, one can only conclude that these groups exhibit characteristics that make integration more difficult or that are more likely to cause resentment. This is a two way street. If you want acceptance as an ethnic group then as a group you have to give a little. In other words, minorities have to take responsibility for their integration and stop blaming the White man for racism if he objects to undesirable culture invading the country. For it's part, I don't think it is possible to imagine a country that is doing more to welcome immigrants. Yep, we have been very welcoming and fair.....but in my view, in far too many numbers over far too long a time. We have ceded away our own country.....down to selfish neo liberal Tories and the ideological left. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

16 Dec 18 2.27pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Yep, we have been very welcoming and fair.....but in my view, in far too many numbers over far too long a time.

We have ceded away our own country.....down to selfish neo liberal Tories and the ideological left.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steve1984 16 Dec 18 2.31pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays There is no authoritarianism because you have that choice..... So I accept to live in a state defined by your nationalism or I'm free to leave? Thanks. That's very generous of you. One can only wonder where all these people who are oppressed by authoritarian regimes are supposed to live? Should we create our very own Sparta? Where would you suggest we do that? Actually don't answer that as clearly once your problematic former citizens move beyond the borders of your myopic nation state, it's clear that you don't really care.
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steve1984 16 Dec 18 2.31pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

There is no authoritarianism because you have that choice.....

So I accept to live in a state defined by your nationalism or I'm free to leave?

Thanks. That's very generous of you.

One can only wonder where all these people who are oppressed by authoritarian regimes are supposed to live? Should we create our very own Sparta? Where would you suggest we do that?

Actually don't answer that as clearly once your problematic former citizens move beyond the borders of your myopic nation state, it's clear that you don't really care.

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Hrolf The Ganger 16 Dec 18 2.40pm
Originally posted by steve1984 So I accept to live in a state defined by your nationalism or I'm free to leave? Thanks. That's very generous of you. One can only wonder where all these people who are oppressed by authoritarian regimes are supposed to live? Should we create our very own Sparta? Where would you suggest we do that? Actually don't answer that as clearly once your problematic former citizens move beyond the borders of your myopic nation state, it's clear that you don't really care. So in other words. You have no time or respect for the existing culture but you expect the existing population to welcome with open arms? Sums it up nicely.
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Hrolf The Ganger

16 Dec 18 2.40pm

Originally posted by steve1984

So I accept to live in a state defined by your nationalism or I'm free to leave?

Thanks. That's very generous of you.

One can only wonder where all these people who are oppressed by authoritarian regimes are supposed to live? Should we create our very own Sparta? Where would you suggest we do that?

Actually don't answer that as clearly once your problematic former citizens move beyond the borders of your myopic nation state, it's clear that you don't really care.

So in other words. You have no time or respect for the existing culture but you expect the existing population to welcome with open arms?

Sums it up nicely.

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Hrolf The Ganger 16 Dec 18 2.44pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Yep, we have been very welcoming and fair.....but in my view, in far too many numbers over far too long a time. We have ceded away our own country.....down to selfish neo liberal Tories and the ideological left. Numbers are the biggest factor along with the often poor choice of candidates.
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Hrolf The Ganger

16 Dec 18 2.44pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yep, we have been very welcoming and fair.....but in my view, in far too many numbers over far too long a time.

We have ceded away our own country.....down to selfish neo liberal Tories and the ideological left.

Numbers are the biggest factor along with the often poor choice of candidates.

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steve1984 16 Dec 18 4.03pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger ...but you expect the existing population to welcome with open arms? Sums it up nicely. I don't expect to be welcomed in my own country no.
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steve1984 16 Dec 18 4.03pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

...but you expect the existing population to welcome with open arms?

Sums it up nicely.

I don't expect to be welcomed in my own country no.

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Hrolf The Ganger 16 Dec 18 4.44pm
Originally posted by steve1984 I don't expect to be welcomed in my own country no. You don't have to be a migrant to be unwelcome if you behave in an anti social manner.
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Hrolf The Ganger

16 Dec 18 4.44pm

Originally posted by steve1984

I don't expect to be welcomed in my own country no.

You don't have to be a migrant to be unwelcome if you behave in an anti social manner.

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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 16 Dec 18 4.46pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You don't have to be a migrant to be unwelcome if you behave in an anti social manner. how ironic. "Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."
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pefwin

Where you have to have an English ... 16 Dec 18 4.46pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You don't have to be a migrant to be unwelcome if you behave in an anti social manner.

how ironic.

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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Hrolf The Ganger 16 Dec 18 4.51pm
Originally posted by pefwin how ironic. I think it's time to use the imaginary ignore button for you. Your M.O. is clear on here and I for one am tired of it.
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Hrolf The Ganger

16 Dec 18 4.51pm

Originally posted by pefwin

how ironic.

I think it's time to use the imaginary ignore button for you.
Your M.O. is clear on here and I for one am tired of it.

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