It's ideas of not causing offence to this particular asian community that enabled these rapes to continue for so long....because these institutions were frightened of idiots calling them racists.

Not causing offence is not part of the equation. The only consideration is what actually solves the problem. If the strategy calls for a softly softly approach then that is in the cause of getting to the objective. Far too many of us have racism deeply embedded in our own culture, often without us realising it. I include myself in that, although I try to recognise it and counsel myself.

This is an outright lie of your own making. Don't present it here as fact. He never said 'all'.

No lie. All fact. He didn't need to say "all". He just said "pakistani". He didn't say "some" either, so whereas you might assume that's what was meant, others won't.

No one has blamed the 'whole community'. This is crap you are making up.

Not openly maybe but that's the impression that many will take away and especially those within the community who are sensitive to such things. If we want to overcome this issue then we need to be careful with our words.

Does it hurt Caucasian people when they are called 'English'...

Caucasians can be from a huge number of nationalities.

Such a traditional Tory voter.

I am. Not the Rees-Mogg type maybe and much more the Ken Clarke type, but Tory nonetheless.

You make things worse because it's people like you who add to the resentment.

Only with people like you. Others with a more open and progressive approach to finding real solutions to real problems, rather than just stirring up the mud, are perfectly able to take the long view.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Who has tarred any nationality with the same brush?

We are going round in circles because you have. Just by using the term "pakistani" does that, despite your denials and inability to recognise the truth.

It is very tiresome when you counter arguments that were never offered and then want to talk about who is a 'British citizen. It makes no difference where people are born. It is the religion and culture that determines who they are, not to mention, in this case, a lack of desire to integrate, except it seems, for the purposes of raping white girls.

It probably is, but that doesn't justify calling them "pakistani", when they might very well actually be British.

So how many pakistanis do you need on the list of rapists before we accept that this is a pakistani Muslim problem? 80% 90%? How many?
Can you even point to one example of a similar occurrence in this country ever involving any other group, never mind a dozen?

The answer to that is that you must never make assumptions, write lists or cast unjustified doubt on others. It's for the professionals to investigate all the circumstances and take what action is deemed necessary.

And why do you imagine that these people got away with it for so long?

Did they? How do we know what the Police and social services were doing quietly and without seeking publicity? Just because people like Robinson are blowing smoke doesn't mean there is a real fire.

What if it was your daughter?

As I said in another thread I have had some personal experience of these problems, about which I won't go into details, but in actual fact one of my daughters was involved. It was this that taught me that not everything that is presented by those who wish to spread scare stories is actually the truth. The Police sorted that issue out very effectively and very few people ever heard anything. I can only imagine how someone like "Tommy Robinson" would spin the story if he had it.

As this seems to be the crux of your argument what’s hate speech exactly and who gets to decide what’s hateful?

Now you could have looked this up just as easily as me but here is the Oxford Dictionary definition, which seems fair enough to me:-

"Abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation."

What ever you think it is, at the moment it only applies to people considered to be in some way “oppressed”.

It applies to everyone but the oppressed seem much more likely to suffer from it.

Can you perhaps see any ideology behind this?

No.

Oh, and what do we do when nobody we vote for actually does what they specifically say they are going to especially fundamental things like protect us?

Politics is the art of the possible and some things aren't possible, despite politicians thinking they are. Events also change the best of intentions. Politicians are no different to the rest of us. They can only do their best. All we can do is decide who tries the hardest. Or stand ourselves.

Edited by W12 (14 Feb 2019 7.38pm)

Every answer you have given smacks of evasion. It is an apologists charter.

I apologise for no-one. I condemn every kind of criminal activity, from whatever source. What I won't do is condemn the innocent who others condemn by association.

Whatever the police and social services were doing in secret, they weren't doing a very good job. Hundreds of girls were raped in a dozen towns. How much secret time did they need when they were more interested in appeasing Asian sensibilities and avoiding political controversy than protecting young White girls?

As it was in secret how on earth do you, or anyone else know how effective it was? That's just more presumption. It has been claimed that hundreds of girls have been raped. If and when we see hundreds of successful prosecutions then we will know if that is true. My wife is Asian and she is as appalled by the idea of anyone being raped as anyone else. Their colour being irrelevant. I am quite sure the Police feel exactly the same way.

And how on earth do you expect to taken seriously when you effectively claim that stating facts is 'racist' when in a previous post, you said it wasn't.

All I have ever said is that one set of facts is not enough. All the facts need to be known and then set in context. Selecting your own facts can support whatever prejudices you hold, including racism.

Do you really believe that where these people were born makes a scrap of difference to who they are?

No, so why do you describe them as pakistanis when you cannot be sure they are and it's irrelevant anyway?

Do you somehow think that calling them British allows you to evade the obvious conclusions as to why this all happened?

Ah, the "obvious conclusion". So you are cleverer and wiser than all the professionals? I suggest that you are simply jumping to these "obvious conclusions" and only scratching the surface of a much deeper problem. I don't for a moment suggest that those who commit crimes must not be found and punished but if we are to discover the underlying causes then we need to not jump to conclusions but really dig deep.

Do you really want to argue definitions even now?

No. I want to permanently extinguish the problem and not light fires underneath it.

Wrong thread

Edited by Henry of Peckham (14 Feb 2019 10.11pm)

Please don't keep implying that anyone is somehow accusing the whole male population of Asia of being rapists.

I haven't. All I have said is that people ought not be categorised and described in ways that potentially taint others. Criminals are criminals. What else they might be is irrelevant.

Also, stop trying to highlight the difference between men from pakistan and men born in England from pakistani families when you know that this has little or no bearing on the cultural, religious and other circumstantial causes of the misogyny among those who conspired. You can label them as you wish, as will I.

Oh but it can make a difference and the more time that passes and as the generations become absorbed into British culture so those differences will grow. The misogyny you speak of will diminish with good education and effort with and within the communities. I am looking at the long view, whilst you are only looking at the past view.

Furthermore, why are you questioning the size of this crime? Many groups of men have already been sentenced and the victims are in the hundreds. Why try to underplay it?

I am not. I realise that several prosecutions have been successful and a significant number of men sentenced. No-one really knows how many girls were involved, many of whom were themselves of Asian descent. This has been a much more complicated issue than you seem prepared to acknowledge.

Clearly, you think that having an Asian wife places you on some sort of moral high ground somehow over this matter. It doesn't. It actually makes you biased.

Actually my wife holds a much harder line on this than me. She is though a devout Christian who has witnessed religious atrocities in her home country. We have interesting discussions!

Now, if you have nothing new to add then I'm done.

Let's see. As I predicted right at the beginning all that ever comes back from the small group of hardliners that populate these threads is the same old very familiar and worn out arguments that contribute nothing to actually solving problems. The identification of a problem is the easy part and I have yet to hear anything about how to actually solve it.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.