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Part Time James 14 Jun 17 4.19pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Libertarian/Authoritarian is probably a better way to think about it. Though again, people are often their own mixtures. Yeah perhaps. I just have visions of everyone's thoughts and opinions on an assembly line and some factory workers picking them off a conveyor belt and casually slinging them into a left or right wing box, that's how arbitrary some categorisation seems to be these days. I say this because I've tried to work out whether I am left or right wing and once I really start analysing things, I couldn't say either way despite having casually assumed I was right of centre in the past. Your categories are perhaps easier for me to allocate my opinions to though. Edited by Part Time James (14 Jun 2017 4.19pm)
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Part Time James

14 Jun 17 4.19pm

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Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Libertarian/Authoritarian is probably a better way to think about it.

Though again, people are often their own mixtures.

Yeah perhaps. I just have visions of everyone's thoughts and opinions on an assembly line and some factory workers picking them off a conveyor belt and casually slinging them into a left or right wing box, that's how arbitrary some categorisation seems to be these days.

I say this because I've tried to work out whether I am left or right wing and once I really start analysing things, I couldn't say either way despite having casually assumed I was right of centre in the past.

Your categories are perhaps easier for me to allocate my opinions to though.

Edited by Part Time James (14 Jun 2017 4.19pm)

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Part Time James 14 Jun 17 4.21pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think there is a tendency towards the left, largely because education tends to result in people questioning more, and there are a lot of things we're brought up with to accept as the norm, that get questioned and in doing so, I think people tend to become more liberal - rather than left wing. Its just that a lot of people on the right tends to see things like equality of gender, human rights, gay marriage, free speech as 'lefty' - they aren't they're liberal. The left tends to adopt them, because pragmatically, they're more in competition with liberalism in the UK than Conservatism. You have a point. I've not even got a degree and I'd probably never marry a bloke. The model works.
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Part Time James

14 Jun 17 4.21pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I think there is a tendency towards the left, largely because education tends to result in people questioning more, and there are a lot of things we're brought up with to accept as the norm, that get questioned and in doing so, I think people tend to become more liberal - rather than left wing.

Its just that a lot of people on the right tends to see things like equality of gender, human rights, gay marriage, free speech as 'lefty' - they aren't they're liberal.

The left tends to adopt them, because pragmatically, they're more in competition with liberalism in the UK than Conservatism.

You have a point. I've not even got a degree and I'd probably never marry a bloke. The model works.

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Stirlingsays 14 Jun 17 4.23pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle How do you tally that with the big generational differences in the voting in this election? It's by far the biggest predictor of how you vote now. This means that there must be people in the same family voting very differently. It depends on the family. I would expect most teenagers living at home with their parents probably voted in a similar way to their parents....with the very important caveat...if they get on....not all...but most. A certain number of students living away from home would be getting into that 'lefty' no fees entitlement culture and would be more likely to vote Labour. A lot of youngsters aren't really informed about life and it's easier to be radical because it's being different...and that's a form of natural rebellion....Not about intelligence or the lack of it. This isn't rocket science...come on am I the only one who doesn't see this as plain as day? It's the family culture and how you felt about Mum and Dad that have far more say on your politics than any so called measure of 'intelligence'. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jun 2017 4.25pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Jun 17 4.23pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

How do you tally that with the big generational differences in the voting in this election? It's by far the biggest predictor of how you vote now. This means that there must be people in the same family voting very differently.

It depends on the family. I would expect most teenagers living at home with their parents probably voted in a similar way to their parents....with the very important caveat...if they get on....not all...but most.

A certain number of students living away from home would be getting into that 'lefty' no fees entitlement culture and would be more likely to vote Labour. A lot of youngsters aren't really informed about life and it's easier to be radical because it's being different...and that's a form of natural rebellion....Not about intelligence or the lack of it.

This isn't rocket science...come on am I the only one who doesn't see this as plain as day?

It's the family culture and how you felt about Mum and Dad that have far more say on your politics than any so called measure of 'intelligence'.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Jun 2017 4.25pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jun 17 4.23pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Stop being accurate. I do regret not taking that computer science degree....wimped out. And just to clarify....there's nothing wrong with dippy female humanities students....God love em. I did psychology, because I thought if I did philosophy I'd never find a job. But also because my course was 90% female. Turned out its a very useful degree, because you have to do a bit of everything. Its the science of the 'bleeding obvious', but it does give you some maths (Stats), neurology, biology, scientific theory, social theory, Linguistics, IT all on top of learning about behaviour and human social interaction (which turns out it be really useful if you apply those skills in the real world). Although I often wish I did an IT Degree, I'd be financially a lot better off as I ended up in IT. Edited by jamiemartin721 (14 Jun 2017 4.26pm) "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jun 17 4.23pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Stop being accurate.

I do regret not taking that computer science degree....wimped out.

And just to clarify....there's nothing wrong with dippy female humanities students....God love em.

I did psychology, because I thought if I did philosophy I'd never find a job. But also because my course was 90% female. Turned out its a very useful degree, because you have to do a bit of everything. Its the science of the 'bleeding obvious', but it does give you some maths (Stats), neurology, biology, scientific theory, social theory, Linguistics, IT all on top of learning about behaviour and human social interaction (which turns out it be really useful if you apply those skills in the real world).

Although I often wish I did an IT Degree, I'd be financially a lot better off as I ended up in IT.

Edited by jamiemartin721 (14 Jun 2017 4.26pm)

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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Rudi Hedman Caterham 14 Jun 17 4.25pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think that comes down to what you studied, and how much effort you put into it. I spend a lot of time working with graduates with IT degrees who are completely lost when it comes to writing documents, referencing, different styles of reporting, correct use of language for different document styles etc. IT degrees are for people who aren't clever enough to get into Computer Science degrees and lack the imagination to write Its really about skill sets. Most IT graduates might well be computer literate, but they do tend to lack a lot of other very useful skills, that outside of their field would probably leave them struggling. IT skills sets and engineering tend to be applicable, because these are big fields of industry with high demand. But that IT degree wouldn't help much outside of that field, say if you went to work in a legal office, where those skills picked up from studying History really would. Computer science you have to program. What do you do in an IT degree? Reorganise file servers? IT just seems like it's one of those things that's easy when you know how, but to know how you've got to write off doing anything else. I knew of someone in a good legal firm who wasn't anywhere near as skilled in writing, sourcing, reporting or anything other than the go in and perform your role and leave. He was well paid but bored. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 14 Jun 17 4.25pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I think that comes down to what you studied, and how much effort you put into it. I spend a lot of time working with graduates with IT degrees who are completely lost when it comes to writing documents, referencing, different styles of reporting, correct use of language for different document styles etc.

IT degrees are for people who aren't clever enough to get into Computer Science degrees and lack the imagination to write

Its really about skill sets. Most IT graduates might well be computer literate, but they do tend to lack a lot of other very useful skills, that outside of their field would probably leave them struggling.

IT skills sets and engineering tend to be applicable, because these are big fields of industry with high demand.

But that IT degree wouldn't help much outside of that field, say if you went to work in a legal office, where those skills picked up from studying History really would.

Computer science you have to program. What do you do in an IT degree? Reorganise file servers? IT just seems like it's one of those things that's easy when you know how, but to know how you've got to write off doing anything else.

I knew of someone in a good legal firm who wasn't anywhere near as skilled in writing, sourcing, reporting or anything other than the go in and perform your role and leave. He was well paid but bored.

COYP

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Stirlingsays 14 Jun 17 4.31pm
Originally posted by Part Time James Yeah perhaps. I just have visions of everyone's thoughts and opinions on an assembly line and some factory workers picking them off a conveyor belt and casually slinging them into a left or right wing box, that's how arbitrary some categorisation seems to be these days. I say this because I've tried to work out whether I am left or right wing and once I really start analysing things, I couldn't say either way despite having casually assumed I was right of centre in the past. Your categories are perhaps easier for me to allocate my opinions to though. Edited by Part Time James (14 Jun 2017 4.19pm) Looking into all of this is quite a lot of fun. Some opinions change as you go on....you learn from some people and sometimes your opinions are reinforced. I like interacting with different opinions though.... a sea of permanently nodding heads can get boring....Unless you are in a brothel I suppose. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Jun 17 4.31pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

Your categories are perhaps easier for me to allocate my opinions to though.

Edited by Part Time James (14 Jun 2017 4.19pm)

Looking into all of this is quite a lot of fun.

Some opinions change as you go on....you learn from some people and sometimes your opinions are reinforced.

I like interacting with different opinions though.... a sea of permanently nodding heads can get boring....Unless you are in a brothel I suppose.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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hedgehog50 Croydon 14 Jun 17 4.32pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Computer science you have to program. What do you do in an IT degree? Reorganise file servers? IT just seems like it's one of those things that's easy when you know how, but to know how you've got to write off doing anything else. I knew of someone in a good legal firm who wasn't anywhere near as skilled in writing, sourcing, reporting or anything other than the go in and perform your role and leave. He was well paid but bored. I worked in IT all my life. Started in the days before there were any degrees in it or much training at all come to that. The work was complex and needed intelligent people to perform it. Over the years, when IT graduates starting to appear, I found that many of them were far worse at it than those who had risen through the ranks. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 14 Jun 17 4.32pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

I worked in IT all my life. Started in the days before there were any degrees in it or much training at all come to that. The work was complex and needed intelligent people to perform it. Over the years, when IT graduates starting to appear, I found that many of them were far worse at it than those who had risen through the ranks.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jun 17 4.32pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Computer science you have to program. What do you do in an IT degree? Reorganise file servers? IT just seems like it's one of those things that's easy when you know how, but to know how you've got to write off doing anything else. A bit of everything. You do some programming as well usually. Its kind of a bit like IT degrees teach you how to use a package say to integrate or produce a software application, where as computer science is more about producing the package. Originally posted by Rudi Hedman I knew of someone in a good legal firm who wasn't anywhere near as skilled in writing, sourcing, reporting or anything other than the go in and perform your role and leave. He was well paid but bored. I'm kind of the opposite, I am pretty sure that I got on well in IT because I have skills that once I got in to the company (as a temp) they proved to be rare skills within that environment. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jun 17 4.32pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

A bit of everything. You do some programming as well usually. Its kind of a bit like IT degrees teach you how to use a package say to integrate or produce a software application, where as computer science is more about producing the package.

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
I knew of someone in a good legal firm who wasn't anywhere near as skilled in writing, sourcing, reporting or anything other than the go in and perform your role and leave. He was well paid but bored.

I'm kind of the opposite, I am pretty sure that I got on well in IT because I have skills that once I got in to the company (as a temp) they proved to be rare skills within that environment.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Part Time James 14 Jun 17 4.33pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Looking into all of this is quite a lot of fun. Some opinions change as you go on....you learn from some people and sometimes your opinions are reinforced. I like interacting with different opinions though.... a sea of permanently nodding heads can get boring....Unless you are in a brothel I suppose. Absolutely, and this forum is great for it as it goes. Still not going to marry a bloke though.
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Part Time James

14 Jun 17 4.33pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Looking into all of this is quite a lot of fun.

Some opinions change as you go on....you learn from some people and sometimes your opinions are reinforced.

I like interacting with different opinions though.... a sea of permanently nodding heads can get boring....Unless you are in a brothel I suppose.

Absolutely, and this forum is great for it as it goes.

Still not going to marry a bloke though.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jun 17 4.38pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 I worked in IT all my life. Started in the days before there were any degrees in it or much training at all come to that. The work was complex and needed intelligent people to perform it. Over the years, when IT graduates starting to appear, I found that many of them were far worse at it than those who had risen through the ranks. I've been in IT since I was 28, before that I had what I tell people were 'proper jobs' in that they had emotional and physically taxing elements. I've worked in a malt house of a brewer shifting 25kg bags all day, worked in the court service assisting on cases and clerking for judges, worked in shops, been a barman, worked in a warhouse and been an apprentice car parts sales man for ford. But I was lucky, I went from domestic violence injunctions, child protection cases and clerking /case prep on sex offence cases to working in IT (Initially document management, then Change and Configuration Management). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jun 17 4.38pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

I've been in IT since I was 28, before that I had what I tell people were 'proper jobs' in that they had emotional and physically taxing elements. I've worked in a malt house of a brewer shifting 25kg bags all day, worked in the court service assisting on cases and clerking for judges, worked in shops, been a barman, worked in a warhouse and been an apprentice car parts sales man for ford.

But I was lucky, I went from domestic violence injunctions, child protection cases and clerking /case prep on sex offence cases to working in IT (Initially document management, then Change and Configuration Management).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 14 Jun 17 4.38pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Computer science you have to program. What do you do in an IT degree? Reorganise file servers? IT just seems like it's one of those things that's easy when you know how, but to know how you've got to write off doing anything else. I knew of someone in a good legal firm who wasn't anywhere near as skilled in writing, sourcing, reporting or anything other than the go in and perform your role and leave. He was well paid but bored. Mmmm...let's see...two years of sucking eggs generalised stuff not that much more difficult than A level. Then in that final year when it really starts one programming module...I did a scheduling program for the lecturers....One database theory....Data warehousing...which was interesting in an incredibly boring way....Business applications...man that was s***...and web development....which is easy for any competent IT student worth their salt. In that last year....was next to another flat share full of student nurses....strong contender for best year of my life that was. The things you can do with a thermometer. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Jun 17 4.38pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Mmmm...let's see...two years of sucking eggs generalised stuff not that much more difficult than A level.

Then in that final year when it really starts one programming module...I did a scheduling program for the lecturers....One database theory....Data warehousing...which was interesting in an incredibly boring way....Business applications...man that was s***...and web development....which is easy for any competent IT student worth their salt.

In that last year....was next to another flat share full of student nurses....strong contender for best year of my life that was.

The things you can do with a thermometer.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Jun 17 4.39pm
Originally posted by Part Time James Absolutely, and this forum is great for it as it goes. Still not going to marry a bloke though. Only because you're married to your beard. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Jun 17 4.39pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

Absolutely, and this forum is great for it as it goes.

Still not going to marry a bloke though.

Only because you're married to your beard.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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