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Southern Rail Strike - right or wrong

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7mins Flag In the bush 05 Dec 16 10.14am Send a Private Message to 7mins Add 7mins as a friend

Originally posted by Y Ddraig Goch

Interesting that you use the term less safe ratheir than unsafe. They are not necessarily the same.

Also I doubt anyone would disagree that Southern are a shower of s*** and have been caught lying about lots of things this year. Southern and their franchise is a separate issue.


Edited by Y Ddraig Goch (04 Dec 2016 9.48pm)


Yes, less safe...... nothing is 100% safe. The question that needs asking... do we make our railways safer, or do we accept it being a bit less safe to make a bit more money?

 

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steeleye20 Flag Croydon 05 Dec 16 10.22am Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by 7mins

This current franchise is the only one of its kind. Southern are paid a management fee... I left before this current deal was negotiated. Ex colleagues tell me Southern wanted this kind of deal (no financial risk) if DfT wanted them to go to war with the unions. See Peter Wilkinson's speech in Feb (I think). Southern have wanted rid of guards/platform/ticket office staff for the duration of my employment. Minimum staff = maximum profit. Pressure from shareholders was immense

Interesting but I notice at once there is no mention of customers here it looks like the management company has a relationship with the DfT and the latter have a political agenda against the railway staff.

 

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mezzer Flag Main Stand, Block F, Row 20 seat 1... 05 Dec 16 10.29am Send a Private Message to mezzer Add mezzer as a friend

Originally posted by 7mins


Yes, less safe...... nothing is 100% safe. The question that needs asking... do we make our railways safer, or do we accept it being a bit less safe to make a bit more money?

Or do we keep them a little "less safe" in exchange for being allowed to go about our daily business and for my kids to be allowed to get to see their terminally ill Grandma after they've finished work as they have no other means of getting from their various places of work in Central London to Oxted and home again within the time that they have to do so?

In the early days of motor vehicles a man used to walk in front waving a flag. As far as I know, no one was killed because this was safe. Sometimes we have to trust the great British public to be sensible, and when they're not, someone may suffer. I'd rather the latter than the inability to pursue my life in the name of safety.

 


Living down here does have some advantages. At least you can see them cry.

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7mins Flag In the bush 05 Dec 16 10.34am Send a Private Message to 7mins Add 7mins as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

Interesting but I notice at once there is no mention of customers here it looks like the management company has a relationship with the DfT and the latter have a political agenda against the railway staff.

Maybe you're right, I couldn't say for sure. I do know that DfT are pretty much underwriting Southern at the mo. Even the new compo comes from DfT.
Also if Southern/DfT win, make no mistake... this method of working will be introduced nationwide.
Chris Burchill was in court regarding Paddington. There was no way under him he would sign off anything that made the railway less safe. Charles Horton is a different animal... I've had a few dealings with him... he is a hard nosed businessman... he has no problem fighting dirty.

 

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7mins Flag In the bush 05 Dec 16 10.37am Send a Private Message to 7mins Add 7mins as a friend

Originally posted by mezzer

Or do we keep them a little "less safe" in exchange for being allowed to go about our daily business and for my kids to be allowed to get to see their terminally ill Grandma after they've finished work as they have no other means of getting from their various places of work in Central London to Oxted and home again within the time that they have to do so?

In the early days of motor vehicles a man used to walk in front waving a flag. As far as I know, no one was killed because this was safe. Sometimes we have to trust the great British public to be sensible, and when they're not, someone may suffer. I'd rather the latter than the inability to pursue my life in the name of safety.


You make a good argument... but one I disagree with. Unions aren't making the railway less safe.. DfT are. I also don't mind people saying "I'll take my chances etc" as long as they say that when the next crash/derailment/trap n drag happens.

 

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Hoof Hearted 05 Dec 16 11.34am

Originally posted by 7mins

I notice you didn't answer my question?
RSSB were worried about taking away the TCOC and SCB from guards, what are your thoughts on this?

I'm guessing you know what a guard is trained to do, because only a moron would say they're not needed and have no idea what they are actually trained to do.

So if I could respectfully ask you to answer my question, that would be fab dear old boy.

(If you're gonna ramble on like a thicko and not answer the question, you leave me with no choice but to assume you're a loud empty vessel who has no idea what he is talking about)


Love n light

X

Edited by 7mins (04 Dec 2016 9.37pm)

Right - first chance I've had to get back on here and see you are still relying on rude insults and stupid use of initials/acronyms to make your point.

I admit I have spent my entire life working in financial services but some of that was in compliance.

Safety and best practice runs true through every industry and I doubt that your industry (assuming you're not a bullsh*tter bigging yourself up) is much different to mine.

The point I was making was that safety on trains has evolved since the 60's but mostly with technology advancement and this should continue. I feel confident enough to debate this particular matter with anyone, just the same as I would expect someone to debate with me over Financial matters. I am well educated, have 56 years experience of using trains and take an interest.

You say the industry is complicated, and I am sure it is, but I'll bet you have no in depth knowledge of the algorithms, wiring diagrams etc of signalling protocol despite your desire to try and make me look foolish.

The truth is, guards onboard trains will not make them safer I think.... for a start where would you place them for optimum safety? The front, the back, the middle? Once the doors are shut how will they be able to see outside up and down the train to ensure no one has something caught and is being dragged along the platform?

If I have to put up with people questioning my expertise in my chosen career then you should be able to do the same without resorting to abuse or put downs.

PS - if you are who you say you are, then I would be interested in your take on the Croydon Tram Disaster and why there were not more safety features built into the design of the cab or track to prevent a rogue (or incapacitated) driver taking a bend way above a safe speed which I believe was 15MPH in this instance?

I realise extra features cost money, but can you put a price on human life?

Love n Light to you too

X

Edited by Hoof Hearted (05 Dec 2016 2.28pm)

 

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7mins Flag In the bush 05 Dec 16 4.27pm Send a Private Message to 7mins Add 7mins as a friend

Originally posted by Hoof Hearted

Right - first chance I've had to get back on here and see you are still relying on rude insults and stupid use of initials/acronyms to make your point.

I admit I have spent my entire life working in financial services but some of that was in compliance.

Safety and best practice runs true through every industry and I doubt that your industry (assuming you're not a bullsh*tter bigging yourself up) is much different to mine.

The point I was making was that safety on trains has evolved since the 60's but mostly with technology advancement and this should continue. I feel confident enough to debate this particular matter with anyone, just the same as I would expect someone to debate with me over Financial matters. I am well educated, have 56 years experience of using trains and take an interest.

You say the industry is complicated, and I am sure it is, but I'll bet you have no in depth knowledge of the algorithms, wiring diagrams etc of signalling protocol despite your desire to try and make me look foolish.

The truth is, guards onboard trains will not make them safer I think.... for a start where would you place them for optimum safety? The front, the back, the middle? Once the doors are shut how will they be able to see outside up and down the train to ensure no one has something caught and is being dragged along the platform?

If I have to put up with people questioning my expertise in my chosen career then you should be able to do the same without resorting to abuse or put downs.

PS - if you are who you say you are, then I would be interested in your take on the Croydon Tram Disaster and why there were not more safety features built into the design of the cab or track to prevent a rogue (or incapacitated) driver taking a bend way above a safe speed which I believe was 15MPH in this instance?

I realise extra features cost money, but can you put a price on human life?

Love n Light to you too

X

Edited by Hoof Hearted (05 Dec 2016 2.28pm)

My dear hoof.

Those silly acronyms are important safety procedures related to protecting failed trains in emergency. Now, you can clearly see why I treat your argument that guards are obsolete when you don't know what they are trained to do, with contempt. I'm sorry it offends old boy... but (on this) subject you don't hold the required knowledge to have a informed point of view.

The worry isn't about train dispatch (so much) it's about out of normal working arrangements, train evacuation (emergency and controlled), emergency and assistance protection of a failed train, derailment and train collision (99% of times driver will be dead or injured) also current isolation.

The guard also dispatches trains from rear cab, this allows them to keep a eye on the platform as the train leaves, should anyone fall/stumble they have the ability to stop the train. If they're inside the train, they can give the driver "one on the bell" which tells him to perform a emergency stop.

Trams aren't my area of expertise, but I would imagine the ability to fit TPWS (Train Protection Warning System) on public roads would prove difficult.

Hoof... there is no polite way of saying this... but you genuinely don't know what you're speaking about. Sincere apologies if this hurts ya ego... but being old doesn't make you a expert.

X

 

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Kermit8 Flag Hevon 05 Dec 16 4.55pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Time to pull up your trousers now, Hoofy old chap, and back away slowly. That was onehelluva spanking

Edited by Kermit8 (05 Dec 2016 5.00pm)

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


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steeleye20 Flag Croydon 05 Dec 16 4.58pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by 7mins

My dear hoof.

Those silly acronyms are important safety procedures related to protecting failed trains in emergency. Now, you can clearly see why I treat your argument that guards are obsolete when you don't know what they are trained to do, with contempt. I'm sorry it offends old boy... but (on this) subject you don't hold the required knowledge to have a informed point of view.

The worry isn't about train dispatch (so much) it's about out of normal working arrangements, train evacuation (emergency and controlled), emergency and assistance protection of a failed train, derailment and train collision (99% of times driver will be dead or injured) also current isolation.

The guard also dispatches trains from rear cab, this allows them to keep a eye on the platform as the train leaves, should anyone fall/stumble they have the ability to stop the train. If they're inside the train, they can give the driver "one on the bell" which tells him to perform a emergency stop.

Trams aren't my area of expertise, but I would imagine the ability to fit TPWS (Train Protection Warning System) on public roads would prove difficult.

Hoof... there is no polite way of saying this... but you genuinely don't know what you're speaking about. Sincere apologies if this hurts ya ego... but being old doesn't make you a expert.

X

I am interested to know what medical kit/training a guard is required to have ...H is only 50

 

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7mins Flag In the bush 05 Dec 16 5.40pm Send a Private Message to 7mins Add 7mins as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

I am interested to know what medical kit/training a guard is required to have ...H is only 50

Guards are trained to apply SCB, a device that shorts out the electric current on the 3rd rail (quickest way of cutting juice in emergency)

Guards are trained to use TCOC (track circuit operating clips) quickest way of turning signals to red when can't contact signaller. This will stop a derailed train on the down line being hit by a passing train on the up line.

Guards are trained to lay detonators. Small explosives placed on the running line to stop a train in emergency. Also used as a marker when a failed train is being assisted.

Guards can contact ECO to get current switched off

Guards are also trained in emergency and controlled evacuation.


^ that's all I can remember, I'm sure there's more.


Or if you believe hoof... they check tickets.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 05 Dec 16 5.48pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Time to pull up your trousers now, Hoofy old chap, and back away slowly. That was onehelluva spanking

Edited by Kermit8 (05 Dec 2016 5.00pm)

Bless him. He seems to think teachers just do finger painting. If only they had time for such fripperies.

 

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steeleye20 Flag Croydon 05 Dec 16 5.57pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by 7mins

Guards are trained to apply SCB, a device that shorts out the electric current on the 3rd rail (quickest way of cutting juice in emergency)

Guards are trained to use TCOC (track circuit operating clips) quickest way of turning signals to red when can't contact signaller. This will stop a derailed train on the down line being hit by a passing train on the up line.

Guards are trained to lay detonators. Small explosives placed on the running line to stop a train in emergency. Also used as a marker when a failed train is being assisted.

Guards can contact ECO to get current switched off

Guards are also trained in emergency and controlled evacuation.


^ that's all I can remember, I'm sure there's more.


Or if you believe hoof... they check tickets.

So is there a requirement for a medical kit to be carried and does the guard have any training?

 

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