Apologies for the lengthy post...

At times is the spectre of "anti semitism" abused where people are simply accusing the Israeli government of acting inappropriately? Sure.

At times,do people come out with some dodgy utterances that expose underlying anti semitic-like sentiments,and try to cover it up by saying they are merely "anti zionists"? or victims of the "zionist media/lobby"?Equally sure.

Balance is all.Balance is not being slow to recognise there do seem to be disturbing pockets of anti-semitism within Labour.Equal balance in recognising the cancer doesn't just exist there and very far from attaches itself to all in the Labour party who are at times very critical of the Israeli government's actions.

We need to be careful of demonising whole groups indiscriminately and collectively for the sins of their governments,whether it be Saudis,Serbs in Bosnia,Israelis or Brits

So,I do agree with those who would say the media are focusing on this issue with the intensity they are so as to basically use it as another way of attacking Labour.If they looked equally as hard,likely they'd find a not insignificant amount of it on the right.And,indeed as I've posted before, a poll last year showed Lib Dem voters as those most inclined (still a relatively small minority) to anti semitic sentiments.

So,when Ken says Hitler supported sending Jews to Israel (Ken seemingly being ignorant of the fact Israel didn't exist then and the zionist goal was a "national home" as opposed necessarily to a state) before he "went mad"and killed 6 million,its actually pretty dodgy in that he seems to me suggesting there is some equivalence between Hitler (Post Mein Kampf)and pro-zionists and suggesting zionism is dodgy because someone like Hitler was in favour of it. It may not be anti semitic but its a crass,offensive,dodgy and dumb thing to say at this time.

He also said today he had never heard anyone in the labour party make an anti semitic assertion.Funny that,given,as just one example, he knew Naz Shah had posted her endorsement of the view that Israelis,(though no doubt in her dodgy mind just Jewish Israelis),should all be transferrd from Israel en masse and resettled in the USA.(Not least also showing her crass ignorance of the 2 million Jews expelled from Middle Eastern countries (with property expropriated)where they'd lived for hundreds of years or longer to Israel and the Jewish presence in the area since biblical times

So,lets not get too eager to paint Ken as a martyr at the hands of the pro-Isael lobby.They may very well be after him and try to "tar" him but it seems he's doing quite enough that's dodgy to put himself in the doghouse without any "Jewish lobby" assistance. Thus, call him what he is;a cnut, and that saddens me having been a supporter of his at the GLC and as Mayor.

The HAMAS charter states that"the Jews" were responsible for the French Revolution and both world wars.Can you imagine if something similar was said about African people or those from the Indian sub-continent? Corbyn (whom I generally have some time for)and Ken would rightly be up in arms about it and refuse to share a platform/expel anyone supporting them from the party.

Yet because Palestinians are viewed as the oppressed(not unreasonably) and Israelis always the bad guys (not always 100% reasonably),it seems to allow for an extremely reactionary ideological group within the Palestinian community with clear anti semitic (not simply anti zionist) sentiments in its charter to be embraced as freedom fighters and platforms shared with them.Perhaps we need to be more careful when we say we support the good guys not the dodgy ones to make sure we don't embrace any of the dodgy ones

Edited by legaleagle (28 Apr 2016 9.29pm)

I see this as a case of "the left" (for want of a better term) being hoisted by their own petard with regard to this sort of stuff. They have, for ages, been tarring anyone with any uncomplimentary view of the best way to deal with groups they support (be they muslims, urban youths, the gay community, immigrants, whatever) as being racist/homophobic/islamophobic/etc. Some may well be (almost certainly are) guilty as charged, but it is used to shut down debate with gay abandon without actually bothering to address the points within.

Apologies for the lengthy post...

At times is the spectre of "anti semitism" abused where people are simply accusing the Israeli government of acting inappropriately? Sure.

At times,do people come out with some dodgy utterances that expose underlying anti semitic-like sentiments,and try to cover it up by saying they are merely "anti zionists"? or victims of the "zionist media/lobby"?Equally sure.

Balance is all.Balance is not being slow to recognise there do seem to be disturbing pockets of anti-semitism within Labour.Equal balance in recognising the cancer doesn't just exist there and very far from attaches itself to all in the Labour party who are at times very critical of the Israeli government's actions.

We need to be careful of demonising whole groups indiscriminately and collectively for the sins of their governments,whether it be Saudis,Serbs in Bosnia,Israelis or Brits

So,I do agree with those who would say the media are focusing on this issue with the intensity they are so as to basically use it as another way of attacking Labour.If they looked equally as hard,likely they'd find a not insignificant amount of it on the right.And,indeed as I've posted before, a poll last year showed Lib Dem voters as those most inclined (still a relatively small minority) to anti semitic sentiments.

So,when Ken says Hitler supported sending Jews to Israel (Ken seemingly being ignorant of the fact Israel didn't exist then and the zionist goal was a "national home" as opposed necessarily to a state) before he "went mad"and killed 6 million,its actually pretty dodgy in that he seems to me suggesting there is some equivalence between Hitler (Post Mein Kampf)and pro-zionists and suggesting zionism is dodgy because someone like Hitler was in favour of it. It may not be anti semitic but its a crass,offensive,dodgy and dumb thing to say at this time.

He also said today he had never heard anyone in the labour party make an anti semitic assertion.Funny that,given,as just one example, he knew Naz Shah had posted her endorsement of the view that Israelis,(though no doubt in her dodgy mind just Jewish Israelis),should all be transferrd from Israel en masse and resettled in the USA.(Not least also showing her crass ignorance of the 2 million Jews expelled from Middle Eastern countries (with property expropriated)where they'd lived for hundreds of years or longer to Israel and the Jewish presence in the area since biblical times

So,lets not get too eager to paint Ken as a martyr at the hands of the pro-Isael lobby.They may very well be after him and try to "tar" him but it seems he's doing quite enough that's dodgy to put himself in the doghouse without any "Jewish lobby" assistance. Thus, call him what he is;a cnut, and that saddens me having been a supporter of his at the GLC and as Mayor.

The HAMAS charter states that"the Jews" were responsible for the French Revolution and both world wars.Can you imagine if something similar was said about African people or those from the Indian sub-continent? Corbyn (whom I generally have some time for)and Ken would rightly be up in arms about it and refuse to share a platform/expel anyone supporting them from the party.

Yet because Palestinians are viewed as the oppressed(not unreasonably) and Israelis always the bad guys (not always 100% reasonably),it seems to allow for an extremely reactionary ideological group within the Palestinian community with clear anti semitic (not simply anti zionist) sentiments in its charter to be embraced as freedom fighters and platforms shared with them.Perhaps we need to be more careful when we say we support the good guys not the dodgy ones to make sure we don't embrace any of the dodgy ones

You make some good points. But in relation to Livingstone's point about Hitler initially brokering a deal with Zionists to move people to Israel (Palestine as it was then), which we all know is what he meant), it is a historical fact. The Transfer Agreement was made by the Nazi state and Zionist German Jews in the early 1930s and was agreed by the Zionist Federation of Germany. It was controversial but it happened.

If find it a bit weird that only a year and 3 months after people came over all Je suis Charlie about Freedom of expression, a person cannot repeat a historical fact.

In my opinion this Kaffulle is about one thing and one thing only. It is a demonstration of the fact that Israel must be allowed to carryout their slow genocide on the Palestinian people. Any opposition to this will be crushed.

Edited by legaleagle (28 Apr 2016 9.29pm)

Yeah but it's all context. Hitler was never doing them a favour and in support of Zionism, he just wanted them gone from Germany. And he certainly hated Jews the very moment Germany waved the white flag in the trenches of Belgium. He didn't hate them after he went mad. He hated Jews all along. And you could argue was very calculated in his actions rather than being mad.

This confusion of Judaism, Zionism and Israeli Govt policy is a delicate issue and gets people into all sorts of trouble, often those who feel the need to be in the news/social media. They should either keep quiet or encourage debate over Israeli Govt policy rather than bringing in bizarre snippets of history or confusion over Jews, Judaism, Zionism, Israel.

They have a responsibility as opposition to govt but are embarrassing themselves.

I agree of course Hitler wasn't doing Jewish people a favour with his policy of transportation and I don't think Livingstone was saying he was.

But in my view the conflation of criticism of Israeli Govt policy with antisemitism is stifling debate and supporting Israel's murder of Palestinian people; Its basically political correctness gone mad.

I accept that European history is full of dreadful acts of inhumanity (though humans definitely did it just as humans are murdering Palestinians) against Jewish people, including the massacres, pogroms and of course the holocaust.

I have recently read lots of Jewish content providers who were supposed supporters of the Labour party who have said that they cannot support the Labour Party anymore. This is basically because Corbyn won't support Israel's genocide. Well a while back I used to support Israel but I cannot support that murdering nation anymore. I am glad the Labour Party doesn't either.

Having a party that stands up for the weak against the powerful is brilliant.

Edited by Bert the Head (30 Apr 2016 12.25am)