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Tunisia Terrorism - It's time to get tough
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jamiemartin721  Reading 30 Jun 15 2.55pm |
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Quote silvertop at 30 Jun 2015 2.12pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jun 2015 10.36am
Quote TheJudge at 30 Jun 2015 10.13am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jun 2015 9.31am
Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
So you would allow someone who has through their own free, will gone to a country specifically to kill innocent people in the name of thier chosen sky fairy to come back to Britain abd carry on as normal ? No, I'd try them for Terrorist offences, as they have a universal jurisdiction, and if found guilty, send them to prison, or if more suitable to the country involved extradite them to stand trial in that country. Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
It's simple really, you let it be known clearly and without any doubt that ISIS fighters from the UK will not be allowed back into Britain, end of chat. Also you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a) they were in Syria b) they were part of IS. A lot of people are in Syria with NGO, aid workers and with non-IS rebel factions. Travelling overseas for the purpose of terrorism is a crime in the UK, with up to a life sentence. We should implement this, or deport them to stand trial in a country in which they have been involved in terrorism. Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
That in turn will (I imagine ) push Turkey away from thier "shrugg of the shoulders" attitude if they know that the last place they flew from is where they will be returned to. Turkey would then just put them on a plane back, refusing them entry, as they don't have Turkish citizenship. Turkey isn't really too fussed about IS as its focused against their enemy the Kurds. Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
f*** em. This I definitely agree with. I don't like them, but just refusing them entry to the UK, isn't an option.
Not saying that, I'm saying arrest the f**kers, try them, and send them to prison for the crimes they have committed (Terrorism is universal jurisdiction, so they can be tried anywhere), or specifically extradite them to stand trial elsewhere (notably where they have committed crimes). It also enables you to turn one or two of the less committed, to inform on others who they saw out there. I'm not sure how that translates as 'just let them back in and hope for the best'. Revoking citizenship, sounds good on rhetorical level and beats a good nationalist drum, but its utterly impractical, because you'd send them back to the country they came from and that country would just send them back to you. Plus you'd need to go through the process of revoking citizenship, which presumably would require reasonable evidence of fighting with IS (which is going to be tricky to prove). Not at all practical or workable
The kill 'em all element on this site will say: fvck 'em! In this I have a degree of sympathy. However, assuming they have not committed any crime [and how can this be proven?], they will presumably return to their homes and communicate the realities of their experience, whether formally through talking to schools or informally through general chat among their peers; negative publicity in one of the source communities is not a bad thing especially when those who go are fuelled by propaganda and unrealistic fantasies of adventure. As is turning said chap to provide intelligence for our side. As is giving a gullible fool a second chance. As is reuniting the lad with his distraught [and likely entirely innocent] family. On the other hand, giving the lad no way back will simply mean that IS will happily retain one extra fighter who, with time and battle hardening, could become very useful for them. Or more worrying, that individual 'going underground' turning up in another country training militants and terrorists. Arrest, detain and try.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 30 Jun 15 3.07pm |
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I’m talking about from the UK, and if it is made clear that anyone who goes off to get measured up for a semtex over coat does not come back, that has to be more of a deterrent than "put the cuffs on Copper, I'll be out in five years" You have to make the idea of going over there less appealing, and if that means its a one way ticket, where ever they get stuck in Syria with ISIS, I couldn’t give a f***, they won't be here recruiting more brainwashed idots to blow themselves up for Allah on the streets or jails of the UK. Prison is a cushy option you know that Jamie. It's no deterrent to rapists murderers and drug dealers, its hardly going to be a deterrent to people that are willing to die for Allah. The simple and albeit unpalatable truth is, we as a country are better off without those type of backward thinking dick heeds whether they rot in Jail or not. Finally and I think most importantly if they love Syria and IS so much f***ing stay there !
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Jun 15 3.29pm |
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Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 3.07pm
I’m talking about from the UK, and if it is made clear that anyone who goes off to get measured up for a semtex over coat does not come back, that has to be more of a deterrent than "put the cuffs on Copper, I'll be out in five years" You have to make the idea of going over there less appealing, and if that means its a one way ticket, where ever they get stuck in Syria with ISIS, I couldn’t give a f***, they won't be here recruiting more brainwashed idots to blow themselves up for Allah on the streets or jails of the UK. Prison is a cushy option you know that Jamie. It's no deterrent to rapists murderers and drug dealers, its hardly going to be a deterrent to people that are willing to die for Allah. The simple and albeit unpalatable truth is, we as a country are better off without those type of backward thinking dick heeds whether they rot in Jail or not. Finally and I think most importantly if they love Syria and IS so much f***ing stay there ! I'm not really sure that the idea of not being able to come back to the UK is a deterant either, given that most of those going are probably expecting to die (or expecting to die). Problem is always logistically, how could it work. Chances are the point of interception is going to be prior to leaving or upon return, with a few maybe identified with reliable certainty whilst out of the country. Most are going to be caught trying to leave or return. In both these situations, releasing them out of the UK is a danger elsewhere, for someone else. Plus, they're going to make a case that infact they weren't with IS, and appeal the decision to revoke their citizenship (which because they were tried in absentia means they'll succeed as ours is an accusatory system). Its unworkable, and it'll just end up being portrayed as Muslims being persecuted in the West, by groups allied to IS, and used as a recruiting tool. I get where you are coming from, but it won't work either in practice, or as a deterrent and its likely to end up creating more problems than it resolves. We need to take a hardline, but in doing so we should remain just and fair, because ultimately we're talking about suspects, not people who have been proven to be guilty.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 30 Jun 15 3.50pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jun 2015 3.29pm
Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 3.07pm
I’m talking about from the UK, and if it is made clear that anyone who goes off to get measured up for a semtex over coat does not come back, that has to be more of a deterrent than "put the cuffs on Copper, I'll be out in five years" You have to make the idea of going over there less appealing, and if that means its a one way ticket, where ever they get stuck in Syria with ISIS, I couldn’t give a f***, they won't be here recruiting more brainwashed idots to blow themselves up for Allah on the streets or jails of the UK. Prison is a cushy option you know that Jamie. It's no deterrent to rapists murderers and drug dealers, its hardly going to be a deterrent to people that are willing to die for Allah. The simple and albeit unpalatable truth is, we as a country are better off without those type of backward thinking dick heeds whether they rot in Jail or not. Finally and I think most importantly if they love Syria and IS so much f***ing stay there ! I'm not really sure that the idea of not being able to come back to the UK is a deterant either, given that most of those going are probably expecting to die (or expecting to die). Problem is always logistically, how could it work. Chances are the point of interception is going to be prior to leaving or upon return, with a few maybe identified with reliable certainty whilst out of the country. Most are going to be caught trying to leave or return. In both these situations, releasing them out of the UK is a danger elsewhere, for someone else. Plus, they're going to make a case that infact they weren't with IS, and appeal the decision to revoke their citizenship (which because they were tried in absentia means they'll succeed as ours is an accusatory system). Its unworkable, and it'll just end up being portrayed as Muslims being persecuted in the West, by groups allied to IS, and used as a recruiting tool. I get where you are coming from, but it won't work either in practice, or as a deterrent and its likely to end up creating more problems than it resolves. We need to take a hardline, but in doing so we should remain just and fair, because ultimately we're talking about suspects, not people who have been proven to be guilty.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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Attachment: | johnfirewall 30 Jun 15 4.26pm |
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Has anything come of the claim that the recent group of mothers who left were radicalised by the police who forced them to contact their relatives who'd already joined? It's likely nonsense as in the case of the 3 girls whose parents blamed also blamed the authorities but these families have got lawyers involved. There's condemnation, and then there's denoucing these people as a disgrace to the religion and actively pointing out their delusions when they become apparent. Although either is favourable to blaming everyone else. Edited by johnfirewall (30 Jun 2015 4.27pm)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Jun 15 4.28pm |
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Of course the important thing, beyond anything else, is to identify them and isolate them (or eliminate them in the field). I wouldn't even publicise their deaths. They'd just be part of the body count. No mention of them being British, or repatriation of the body. Just bits left on a bombsite and an unmarked grave. We should of course systematically root out and remove from play anyone who does business with IS. Especially its oil smuggling operations. Even if they're politically inconvenient, say Saudi's or British Businesses men, they can just disappear and turn up in the UK for trial, or never show up again. Every time some newspaper prints 'British Suicide Bomber' success stories, it just encourages people.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| DanH SW2 30 Jun 15 4.41pm |
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If everyone just stuck to the simple commandment of 'Be Nice' then none of this would happen anywhere in the World. Unfortunately people are c*nts.
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| kingdowieonthewall Sussex, ex-Cronx. 30 Jun 15 5.26pm |
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Quote DanH at 30 Jun 2015 4.41pm
If everyone just stuck to the simple commandment of 'Be Nice' then none of this would happen anywhere in the World. Unfortunately people are c*nts.
Kids,tired of being bothered by your pesky parents? |
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| Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 30 Jun 15 5.44pm |
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Quote kingdowieonthewall at 30 Jun 2015 5.26pm
Quote DanH at 30 Jun 2015 4.41pm
If everyone just stuck to the simple commandment of 'Be Nice' then none of this would happen anywhere in the World. Unfortunately people are c*nts.
Class film
Lend me a Tenor 31 May to 3 June 2017 John McIntosh Arts Centre with Superfly in the chorus |
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| TheJudge 30 Jun 15 9.28pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jun 2015 10.36am
Quote TheJudge at 30 Jun 2015 10.13am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jun 2015 9.31am
Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
So you would allow someone who has through their own free, will gone to a country specifically to kill innocent people in the name of thier chosen sky fairy to come back to Britain abd carry on as normal ? No, I'd try them for Terrorist offences, as they have a universal jurisdiction, and if found guilty, send them to prison, or if more suitable to the country involved extradite them to stand trial in that country. Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
It's simple really, you let it be known clearly and without any doubt that ISIS fighters from the UK will not be allowed back into Britain, end of chat. Also you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a) they were in Syria b) they were part of IS. A lot of people are in Syria with NGO, aid workers and with non-IS rebel factions. Travelling overseas for the purpose of terrorism is a crime in the UK, with up to a life sentence. We should implement this, or deport them to stand trial in a country in which they have been involved in terrorism. Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
That in turn will (I imagine ) push Turkey away from thier "shrugg of the shoulders" attitude if they know that the last place they flew from is where they will be returned to. Turkey would then just put them on a plane back, refusing them entry, as they don't have Turkish citizenship. Turkey isn't really too fussed about IS as its focused against their enemy the Kurds. Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
f*** em. This I definitely agree with. I don't like them, but just refusing them entry to the UK, isn't an option.
Not saying that, I'm saying arrest the f**kers, try them, and send them to prison for the crimes they have committed (Terrorism is universal jurisdiction, so they can be tried anywhere), or specifically extradite them to stand trial elsewhere (notably where they have committed crimes). It also enables you to turn one or two of the less committed, to inform on others who they saw out there. I'm not sure how that translates as 'just let them back in and hope for the best'. Revoking citizenship, sounds good on rhetorical level and beats a good nationalist drum, but its utterly impractical, because you'd send them back to the country they came from and that country would just send them back to you. Plus you'd need to go through the process of revoking citizenship, which presumably would require reasonable evidence of fighting with IS (which is going to be tricky to prove). Not at all practical or workable What I am suggesting is that all options will be on the table if the situation becomes serious. If security is threatened sufficiently, particularly their own, the government and security services will do what it takes, inside or outside of law.
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| johnfirewall 30 Jun 15 9.47pm |
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I suppose if we avoid these places and fcuk their economy with 15% of GDP being through tourism we'd just end up with more nutters. They'd probably try to do something about it though.
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| legaleagle 30 Jun 15 10.00pm |
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Quote TheJudge at 30 Jun 2015 9.28pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jun 2015 10.36am
Quote TheJudge at 30 Jun 2015 10.13am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 30 Jun 2015 9.31am
Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
So you would allow someone who has through their own free, will gone to a country specifically to kill innocent people in the name of thier chosen sky fairy to come back to Britain abd carry on as normal ? No, I'd try them for Terrorist offences, as they have a universal jurisdiction, and if found guilty, send them to prison, or if more suitable to the country involved extradite them to stand trial in that country. Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
It's simple really, you let it be known clearly and without any doubt that ISIS fighters from the UK will not be allowed back into Britain, end of chat. Also you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a) they were in Syria b) they were part of IS. A lot of people are in Syria with NGO, aid workers and with non-IS rebel factions. Travelling overseas for the purpose of terrorism is a crime in the UK, with up to a life sentence. We should implement this, or deport them to stand trial in a country in which they have been involved in terrorism. Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
That in turn will (I imagine ) push Turkey away from thier "shrugg of the shoulders" attitude if they know that the last place they flew from is where they will be returned to. Turkey would then just put them on a plane back, refusing them entry, as they don't have Turkish citizenship. Turkey isn't really too fussed about IS as its focused against their enemy the Kurds. Quote dannyh at 30 Jun 2015 8.42am
f*** em. This I definitely agree with. I don't like them, but just refusing them entry to the UK, isn't an option.
Not saying that, I'm saying arrest the f**kers, try them, and send them to prison for the crimes they have committed (Terrorism is universal jurisdiction, so they can be tried anywhere), or specifically extradite them to stand trial elsewhere (notably where they have committed crimes). It also enables you to turn one or two of the less committed, to inform on others who they saw out there. I'm not sure how that translates as 'just let them back in and hope for the best'. Revoking citizenship, sounds good on rhetorical level and beats a good nationalist drum, but its utterly impractical, because you'd send them back to the country they came from and that country would just send them back to you. Plus you'd need to go through the process of revoking citizenship, which presumably would require reasonable evidence of fighting with IS (which is going to be tricky to prove). Not at all practical or workable What I am suggesting is that all options will be on the table if the situation becomes serious. If security is threatened sufficiently, particularly their own, the government and security services will do what it takes, inside or outside of law. IMO, we go outside the law at our peril... That means those that have no respect for the rule of law win and we can have no compelling argument about the lawlessness of others.. Historically (and leaving aside for the moment the civil liberties issues) even in war,things have generally been done within the law...even then caution should prevail.As an example,In 1939/40,the government introduced blanket internment of "alien nationals" without thinking it through.This meant many Jewish refugees from Austria and Germany who were "aliens" were put in camps next to their fellow Austrian and German nationals who might be Nazis.Some time later, more quietly,they realised the mess up and own goal aspect of this and released the jews and many subsequently made a valuable contribution to the war effort. In terms of stripping citizenship from people who can't get any other,there are serious international law issues and once you ignore a few things,it threatens the whole edifice and would be taken advantage of by tin pot characters all over the place....and I say that acknowledging the issues when those wishing you harm have no regard for international law, and our own arguable ignoring of it when we went into Iraq.
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