9 dead in USA Church Shooting.

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9 dead in USA Church Shooting.

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TheJudge 22 Jun 15 10.47am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.41am Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.12am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.09am Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 9.39am Quote beagle at 21 Jun 2015 9.36pm Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 7.44pm No special revisions of British society should be made for any group within it......This is Britain, you take the rough with the smooth or you can always bugger off. No. Where you find rough you try to change things for the better. A healthy society is in a constant state of self-examination and revision. It's not static and f* off if you don't like it. That's what hallmarks a democracy which, thank God, we are. Depends what the 'special revisions' the OP is referring to, doesn't it? If a 'special revision' was that, lets say, 'Sharia Law' was permitted within certain sections of the community then I'd agree with the OP. One law for one people. Not a mix and match. To mind that would be the antithesis of democracy. Of course the law in the UK is already different for Scots, Northern Irish and people from the Isle of Man. I'd be hesitant about incorporation of aspects of Sharia law more because not all Muslims want Sharia law, its massively open to interpretation and abuse and varies according to different Islamic faith. That said, I also think that its many people also deliberately disrespect Islamic faith in a way that's deliberately antagonistic, for their own ends, and call it free speech / expression.** They probably call expressing an opinion free speech, because that is what it is. I suppose you appreciate why cartoonist are killed and the likes of Rushdie have to go into hiding for exercising free speech. Why shouldn't people be free to 'disrespect' Islam - Jerry Springer, the Opera was free to disrespect Christianity. Free speech isn't free of consequences. Rushdie, I feel somewhat sorry for, but I do feel less sympathy when its people who have persistently poked the snake with a stick, and then complained that its bitten them. If you keep deliberately antagonizing people for your own ends, you shouldn't be too surprised if the crazy's among those people retaliate. Charlie Hebdo was notably targeted because its cartoons were specifically stating that the actions of Islamists were a disgrace and an insult to Islam, and the Prophet. But if you keep insulting people, without reason, it shouldn't come as a great surprise when people get very upset with it. I'm afraid I don't share you attitude on this. It can never be acceptable to use violence toward people just because you don't like what they say. It is a slippery slope backward toward the savage. We are a civilized society in the West and I for one want to keep it that way. I'm not saying it justifies it, but that maybe you're not quite the victim you claim to be if you've been poking a bear with a stick. I'd argue that just because you have the right to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you should. Free Speech is a good and noble thing, but we should never separate the consequences of speech, that is deliberately aimed at provoking hate or unrest, even if it presents itself innoculously. Deliberately insulting large sections of the population is just provocation. Provocation does not justify violence. What sort of world will we have if we regress to that position ? I am provoked every day by what I see other people do and say. I am not planning on killing any of them. You are just making excuses for savage and irrational behaviour. Lampoonery and satire have been part of western society for hundreds of years.
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TheJudge

22 Jun 15 10.47am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.41am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.12am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.09am

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 9.39am

Quote beagle at 21 Jun 2015 9.36pm

Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 7.44pm

No special revisions of British society should be made for any group within it......This is Britain, you take the rough with the smooth or you can always bugger off.

No. Where you find rough you try to change things for the better. A healthy society is in a constant state of self-examination and revision. It's not static and f*** off if you don't like it. That's what hallmarks a democracy which, thank God, we are.

Depends what the 'special revisions' the OP is referring to, doesn't it?

If a 'special revision' was that, lets say, 'Sharia Law' was permitted within certain sections of the community then I'd agree with the OP. One law for one people. Not a mix and match. To mind that would be the antithesis of democracy.

Of course the law in the UK is already different for Scots, Northern Irish and people from the Isle of Man. I'd be hesitant about incorporation of aspects of Sharia law more because not all Muslims want Sharia law, its massively open to interpretation and abuse and varies according to different Islamic faith.

That said, I also think that its many people also deliberately disrespect Islamic faith in a way that's deliberately antagonistic, for their own ends, and call it free speech / expression.

They probably call expressing an opinion free speech, because that is what it is. I suppose you appreciate why cartoonist are killed and the likes of Rushdie have to go into hiding for exercising free speech. Why shouldn't people be free to 'disrespect' Islam - Jerry Springer, the Opera was free to disrespect Christianity.

Free speech isn't free of consequences. Rushdie, I feel somewhat sorry for, but I do feel less sympathy when its people who have persistently poked the snake with a stick, and then complained that its bitten them.

If you keep deliberately antagonizing people for your own ends, you shouldn't be too surprised if the crazy's among those people retaliate. Charlie Hebdo was notably targeted because its cartoons were specifically stating that the actions of Islamists were a disgrace and an insult to Islam, and the Prophet.

But if you keep insulting people, without reason, it shouldn't come as a great surprise when people get very upset with it.

I'm afraid I don't share you attitude on this.
It can never be acceptable to use violence toward people just because you don't like what they say.
It is a slippery slope backward toward the savage.
We are a civilized society in the West and I for one want to keep it that way.

I'm not saying it justifies it, but that maybe you're not quite the victim you claim to be if you've been poking a bear with a stick.

I'd argue that just because you have the right to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you should. Free Speech is a good and noble thing, but we should never separate the consequences of speech, that is deliberately aimed at provoking hate or unrest, even if it presents itself innoculously. Deliberately insulting large sections of the population is just provocation.

Provocation does not justify violence. What sort of world will we have if we regress to that position ?
I am provoked every day by what I see other people do and say. I am not planning on killing any of them.
You are just making excuses for savage and irrational behaviour. Lampoonery and satire have been part of western society for hundreds of years.

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derben 22 Jun 15 10.56am
Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.47am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.41am Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.12am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.09am Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 9.39am Quote beagle at 21 Jun 2015 9.36pm Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 7.44pm No special revisions of British society should be made for any group within it......This is Britain, you take the rough with the smooth or you can always bugger off. No. Where you find rough you try to change things for the better. A healthy society is in a constant state of self-examination and revision. It's not static and f* off if you don't like it. That's what hallmarks a democracy which, thank God, we are. Depends what the 'special revisions' the OP is referring to, doesn't it? If a 'special revision' was that, lets say, 'Sharia Law' was permitted within certain sections of the community then I'd agree with the OP. One law for one people. Not a mix and match. To mind that would be the antithesis of democracy. Of course the law in the UK is already different for Scots, Northern Irish and people from the Isle of Man. I'd be hesitant about incorporation of aspects of Sharia law more because not all Muslims want Sharia law, its massively open to interpretation and abuse and varies according to different Islamic faith. That said, I also think that its many people also deliberately disrespect Islamic faith in a way that's deliberately antagonistic, for their own ends, and call it free speech / expression.** They probably call expressing an opinion free speech, because that is what it is. I suppose you appreciate why cartoonist are killed and the likes of Rushdie have to go into hiding for exercising free speech. Why shouldn't people be free to 'disrespect' Islam - Jerry Springer, the Opera was free to disrespect Christianity. Free speech isn't free of consequences. Rushdie, I feel somewhat sorry for, but I do feel less sympathy when its people who have persistently poked the snake with a stick, and then complained that its bitten them. If you keep deliberately antagonizing people for your own ends, you shouldn't be too surprised if the crazy's among those people retaliate. Charlie Hebdo was notably targeted because its cartoons were specifically stating that the actions of Islamists were a disgrace and an insult to Islam, and the Prophet. But if you keep insulting people, without reason, it shouldn't come as a great surprise when people get very upset with it. I'm afraid I don't share you attitude on this. It can never be acceptable to use violence toward people just because you don't like what they say. It is a slippery slope backward toward the savage. We are a civilized society in the West and I for one want to keep it that way. I'm not saying it justifies it, but that maybe you're not quite the victim you claim to be if you've been poking a bear with a stick. I'd argue that just because you have the right to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you should. Free Speech is a good and noble thing, but we should never separate the consequences of speech, that is deliberately aimed at provoking hate or unrest, even if it presents itself innoculously. Deliberately insulting large sections of the population is just provocation. Provocation does not justify violence. What sort of world will we have if we regress to that position ? I am provoked every day by what I see other people do and say. I am not planning on killing any of them. You are just making excuses for savage and irrational behaviour. Lampoonery and satire have been part of western society for hundreds of years. At the root of all this is yet again problems with multiculturalism and the clash of cultures - but of course this will be strenuously denied - must never question the fallacy that we all get along famously, shush, keep quite and it all might go away.
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derben

22 Jun 15 10.56am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.47am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.41am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.12am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.09am

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 9.39am

Quote beagle at 21 Jun 2015 9.36pm

Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 7.44pm

No special revisions of British society should be made for any group within it......This is Britain, you take the rough with the smooth or you can always bugger off.

Depends what the 'special revisions' the OP is referring to, doesn't it?

That said, I also think that its many people also deliberately disrespect Islamic faith in a way that's deliberately antagonistic, for their own ends, and call it free speech / expression.

But if you keep insulting people, without reason, it shouldn't come as a great surprise when people get very upset with it.

I'm not saying it justifies it, but that maybe you're not quite the victim you claim to be if you've been poking a bear with a stick.

At the root of all this is yet again problems with multiculturalism and the clash of cultures - but of course this will be strenuously denied - must never question the fallacy that we all get along famously, shush, keep quite and it all might go away.

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black eagle. south croydon. 22 Jun 15 11.02am
As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse. America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty. People like Roof should be made to suffer.
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black eagle.

south croydon. 22 Jun 15 11.02am

As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse.

America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty.

People like Roof should be made to suffer.

Alert a moderator to this post

reborn 22 Jun 15 11.03am
Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.40am Quote reborn at 22 Jun 2015 10.36am Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 10.27am Quote reborn at 22 Jun 2015 10.22am Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.58am Quote reborn at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am Quote Kermit8 at 22 Jun 2015 9.11am Quote reborn at 22 Jun 2015 8.36am All credit to the relatives and members of this church for their incredible reaction. This is the Christian faith in action. Hate, no not for us. Gotta say - I was almightily impressed with them. Turning something so awfully negative into a positive. Great philosophy to have God or no God. Some think they a bit bonkers to have done it. I disagree. Also, it highlighted how wrong the killer was/is not only in his actions but also in his words. These were obviously good people. Not the demons he was trying to portray them us. A very sad but epic fail. A lesson to all wannabe rabble-rousing hate mongers. Hitler made himself look a total ass and so will you. Edited by Kermit8 (22 Jun 2015 9.17am) Good post Kerm. I know believing in Jesus is not a popular choice round these parts, but this is a potent example of where doing just that shows itself in a perfect light. You think 'forgiving' these creatures makes it less likely that it will happen again? Yes. Hate breeds hate, in a never ending cycle. Most importantly they are demonstrating their faith in the most difficult and powerful way possible. The true message of Jesus was love, compassion and forgiveness. All power to them for their strength in the most difficult of times. Its not popular round here to say faith is a positive thing, but here it is demonstrated so powerfully that I'd like to see even The Judge refute it. So if we had just turned the other cheek to Hitler in the 1930s everything would have been alright? Of course not, now you're just being silly for effect. Christians have a duty to forgive, but also stand against evil and protect the oppressed. No sane person would argue that Hitler didn't need opposing. Really ? So your forgiveness and tolerance is now subjective ? You have just demonstrated the big problem with ideology. Different circumstances often require different attitudes. Not at all. You were asking about forgiveness, not whether to stand against. See, your response is subjective according to what agenda you are pushing and in this case its clearly an anti faith one. My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs
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reborn 22 Jun 15 11.03am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.40am

Quote reborn at 22 Jun 2015 10.36am

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 10.27am

Quote reborn at 22 Jun 2015 10.22am

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.58am

Quote reborn at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am

Quote Kermit8 at 22 Jun 2015 9.11am

Quote reborn at 22 Jun 2015 8.36am

All credit to the relatives and members of this church for their incredible reaction.

This is the Christian faith in action.

Hate, no not for us.

Gotta say - I was almightily impressed with them. Turning something so awfully negative into a positive. Great philosophy to have God or no God. Some think they a bit bonkers to have done it. I disagree. Also, it highlighted how wrong the killer was/is not only in his actions but also in his words. These were obviously good people. Not the demons he was trying to portray them us. A very sad but epic fail.

A lesson to all wannabe rabble-rousing hate mongers. Hitler made himself look a total ass and so will you.

Edited by Kermit8 (22 Jun 2015 9.17am)

Good post Kerm.

I know believing in Jesus is not a popular choice round these parts, but this is a potent example of where doing just that shows itself in a perfect light.

You think 'forgiving' these creatures makes it less likely that it will happen again?

Yes. Hate breeds hate, in a never ending cycle.

Most importantly they are demonstrating their faith in the most difficult and powerful way possible. The true message of Jesus was love, compassion and forgiveness.

All power to them for their strength in the most difficult of times. Its not popular round here to say faith is a positive thing, but here it is demonstrated so powerfully that I'd like to see even The Judge refute it.

So if we had just turned the other cheek to Hitler in the 1930s everything would have been alright?

Of course not, now you're just being silly for effect.

Christians have a duty to forgive, but also stand against evil and protect the oppressed. No sane person would argue that Hitler didn't need opposing.

Really ? So your forgiveness and tolerance is now subjective ? You have just demonstrated the big problem with ideology. Different circumstances often require different attitudes.

Not at all. You were asking about forgiveness, not whether to stand against.

See, your response is subjective according to what agenda you are pushing and in this case its clearly an anti faith one.

My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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reborn 22 Jun 15 11.03am
Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.47am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.41am Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.12am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.09am Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 9.39am Quote beagle at 21 Jun 2015 9.36pm Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 7.44pm No special revisions of British society should be made for any group within it......This is Britain, you take the rough with the smooth or you can always bugger off. No. Where you find rough you try to change things for the better. A healthy society is in a constant state of self-examination and revision. It's not static and f* off if you don't like it. That's what hallmarks a democracy which, thank God, we are. Depends what the 'special revisions' the OP is referring to, doesn't it? If a 'special revision' was that, lets say, 'Sharia Law' was permitted within certain sections of the community then I'd agree with the OP. One law for one people. Not a mix and match. To mind that would be the antithesis of democracy. Of course the law in the UK is already different for Scots, Northern Irish and people from the Isle of Man. I'd be hesitant about incorporation of aspects of Sharia law more because not all Muslims want Sharia law, its massively open to interpretation and abuse and varies according to different Islamic faith. That said, I also think that its many people also deliberately disrespect Islamic faith in a way that's deliberately antagonistic, for their own ends, and call it free speech / expression.** They probably call expressing an opinion free speech, because that is what it is. I suppose you appreciate why cartoonist are killed and the likes of Rushdie have to go into hiding for exercising free speech. Why shouldn't people be free to 'disrespect' Islam - Jerry Springer, the Opera was free to disrespect Christianity. Free speech isn't free of consequences. Rushdie, I feel somewhat sorry for, but I do feel less sympathy when its people who have persistently poked the snake with a stick, and then complained that its bitten them. If you keep deliberately antagonizing people for your own ends, you shouldn't be too surprised if the crazy's among those people retaliate. Charlie Hebdo was notably targeted because its cartoons were specifically stating that the actions of Islamists were a disgrace and an insult to Islam, and the Prophet. But if you keep insulting people, without reason, it shouldn't come as a great surprise when people get very upset with it. I'm afraid I don't share you attitude on this. It can never be acceptable to use violence toward people just because you don't like what they say. It is a slippery slope backward toward the savage. We are a civilized society in the West and I for one want to keep it that way. I'm not saying it justifies it, but that maybe you're not quite the victim you claim to be if you've been poking a bear with a stick. I'd argue that just because you have the right to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you should. Free Speech is a good and noble thing, but we should never separate the consequences of speech, that is deliberately aimed at provoking hate or unrest, even if it presents itself innoculously. Deliberately insulting large sections of the population is just provocation. Provocation does not justify violence. What sort of world will we have if we regress to that position ? I am provoked every day by what I see other people do and say. I am not planning on killing any of them. You are just making excuses for savage and irrational behaviour. Lampoonery and satire have been part of western society for hundreds of years. Completely agree Judge. Blimey My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs
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reborn 22 Jun 15 11.03am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.47am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.41am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.12am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.09am

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 9.39am

Quote beagle at 21 Jun 2015 9.36pm

Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 7.44pm

No special revisions of British society should be made for any group within it......This is Britain, you take the rough with the smooth or you can always bugger off.

Depends what the 'special revisions' the OP is referring to, doesn't it?

That said, I also think that its many people also deliberately disrespect Islamic faith in a way that's deliberately antagonistic, for their own ends, and call it free speech / expression.

But if you keep insulting people, without reason, it shouldn't come as a great surprise when people get very upset with it.

I'm not saying it justifies it, but that maybe you're not quite the victim you claim to be if you've been poking a bear with a stick.

Completely agree Judge.

Blimey

My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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Kermit8 Hevon 22 Jun 15 11.21am
Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 10.56am Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.47am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.41am Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.12am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.09am Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 9.39am Quote beagle at 21 Jun 2015 9.36pm Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 7.44pm No special revisions of British society should be made for any group within it......This is Britain, you take the rough with the smooth or you can always bugger off. No. Where you find rough you try to change things for the better. A healthy society is in a constant state of self-examination and revision. It's not static and f* off if you don't like it. That's what hallmarks a democracy which, thank God, we are. Depends what the 'special revisions' the OP is referring to, doesn't it? If a 'special revision' was that, lets say, 'Sharia Law' was permitted within certain sections of the community then I'd agree with the OP. One law for one people. Not a mix and match. To mind that would be the antithesis of democracy. Of course the law in the UK is already different for Scots, Northern Irish and people from the Isle of Man. I'd be hesitant about incorporation of aspects of Sharia law more because not all Muslims want Sharia law, its massively open to interpretation and abuse and varies according to different Islamic faith. That said, I also think that its many people also deliberately disrespect Islamic faith in a way that's deliberately antagonistic, for their own ends, and call it free speech / expression.** They probably call expressing an opinion free speech, because that is what it is. I suppose you appreciate why cartoonist are killed and the likes of Rushdie have to go into hiding for exercising free speech. Why shouldn't people be free to 'disrespect' Islam - Jerry Springer, the Opera was free to disrespect Christianity. Free speech isn't free of consequences. Rushdie, I feel somewhat sorry for, but I do feel less sympathy when its people who have persistently poked the snake with a stick, and then complained that its bitten them. If you keep deliberately antagonizing people for your own ends, you shouldn't be too surprised if the crazy's among those people retaliate. Charlie Hebdo was notably targeted because its cartoons were specifically stating that the actions of Islamists were a disgrace and an insult to Islam, and the Prophet. But if you keep insulting people, without reason, it shouldn't come as a great surprise when people get very upset with it. I'm afraid I don't share you attitude on this. It can never be acceptable to use violence toward people just because you don't like what they say. It is a slippery slope backward toward the savage. We are a civilized society in the West and I for one want to keep it that way. I'm not saying it justifies it, but that maybe you're not quite the victim you claim to be if you've been poking a bear with a stick. I'd argue that just because you have the right to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you should. Free Speech is a good and noble thing, but we should never separate the consequences of speech, that is deliberately aimed at provoking hate or unrest, even if it presents itself innoculously. Deliberately insulting large sections of the population is just provocation. Provocation does not justify violence. What sort of world will we have if we regress to that position ? I am provoked every day by what I see other people do and say. I am not planning on killing any of them. You are just making excuses for savage and irrational behaviour. Lampoonery and satire have been part of western society for hundreds of years. At the root of all this is yet again problems with multiculturalism and the clash of cultures - but of course this will be strenuously denied - must never question the fallacy that we all get along famously, shush, keep quite and it all might go away. You do know people from the same culture clash and argue too sometimes, don't you? You seem to want a version of Utopia where the only way to avoid contretemps or worse is for us all to live a hermit existence. Having said that I you'd be moaning about downwind cooking smells even then no doubt. The world is a small place and lots of people live on it. Waste of time being the curmudgeonly neighbour. It's not going to achieve anything. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 22 Jun 15 11.21am

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 10.56am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.47am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.41am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.12am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 10.09am

Quote derben at 22 Jun 2015 9.55am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 9.39am

Quote beagle at 21 Jun 2015 9.36pm

Quote sydtheeagle at 21 Jun 2015 7.44pm

No special revisions of British society should be made for any group within it......This is Britain, you take the rough with the smooth or you can always bugger off.

Depends what the 'special revisions' the OP is referring to, doesn't it?

That said, I also think that its many people also deliberately disrespect Islamic faith in a way that's deliberately antagonistic, for their own ends, and call it free speech / expression.

But if you keep insulting people, without reason, it shouldn't come as a great surprise when people get very upset with it.

I'm not saying it justifies it, but that maybe you're not quite the victim you claim to be if you've been poking a bear with a stick.

You do know people from the same culture clash and argue too sometimes, don't you? You seem to want a version of Utopia where the only way to avoid contretemps or worse is for us all to live a hermit existence. Having said that I you'd be moaning about downwind cooking smells even then no doubt.

The world is a small place and lots of people live on it. Waste of time being the curmudgeonly neighbour. It's not going to achieve anything.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 15 11.26am
Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.47am Provocation does not justify violence. What sort of world will we have if we regress to that position ? I am provoked every day by what I see other people do and say. I am not planning on killing any of them. You are just making excuses for savage and irrational behaviour. Lampoonery and satire have been part of western society for hundreds of years. I'm not saying it justifies violence, however by its very defintion, it does cause it, and there is a very big difference in terms of causation and blame, when an incident is provoked as opposed to unprovoked. Obviously those responsible for violence have to be dealt with, but we should be cautious about subscribing those provoking others as blameless in all this. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Jun 15 11.26am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.47am
Provocation does not justify violence. What sort of world will we have if we regress to that position ?
I am provoked every day by what I see other people do and say. I am not planning on killing any of them.
You are just making excuses for savage and irrational behaviour. Lampoonery and satire have been part of western society for hundreds of years.

I'm not saying it justifies violence, however by its very defintion, it does cause it, and there is a very big difference in terms of causation and blame, when an incident is provoked as opposed to unprovoked. Obviously those responsible for violence have to be dealt with, but we should be cautious about subscribing those provoking others as blameless in all this.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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TheJudge 22 Jun 15 11.32am
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 11.02am As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse. America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty. People like Roof should be made to suffer. javascripttylebut(0); Wrong. Society should not make people suffer, That is not what a civilised society needs. If he is a danger to society then he should be removed from it. Emotional responses are totally understandable but cannot be the basis of a legal system. The electric chair is an abomination and although I can accept that there might be a case made for the execution of mass killers, I am not in favour of it. Any execution should be carried out painlessly and the United States or any other country that carries out barbaric executions should be ashamed. It's not like it has even been shown to reduce murder. Retribution should not be state funded, even for murdering scum like this man.
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TheJudge

22 Jun 15 11.32am

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 11.02am

As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse.

America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty.

People like Roof should be made to suffer.

javascripttylebut(0);
Wrong.
Society should not make people suffer, That is not what a civilised society needs. If he is a danger to society then he should be removed from it. Emotional responses are totally understandable but cannot be the basis of a legal system. The electric chair is an abomination and although I can accept that there might be a case made for the execution of mass killers, I am not in favour of it. Any execution should be carried out painlessly and the United States or any other country that carries out barbaric executions should be ashamed. It's not like it has even been shown to reduce murder. Retribution should not be state funded, even for murdering scum like this man.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 15 11.32am
Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 11.02am As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse. America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty. People like Roof should be made to suffer. Except of course when the execute people who aren't guilty, or have the misfortune of having commited the offence in a different state, or happen to be treated differently because of race / social class / press coverage etc. Of course by the time it gets around to most peoples executions, they're often changed people, having spent 12-25 years in prison, often dramatically so. The real problem with execution is it doesn't really do anything other than kill someone else "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Jun 15 11.32am

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 11.02am

As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse.

America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty.
People like Roof should be made to suffer.

Except of course when the execute people who aren't guilty, or have the misfortune of having commited the offence in a different state, or happen to be treated differently because of race / social class / press coverage etc.

Of course by the time it gets around to most peoples executions, they're often changed people, having spent 12-25 years in prison, often dramatically so.

The real problem with execution is it doesn't really do anything other than kill someone else

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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derben 22 Jun 15 11.35am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 11.32am Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 11.02am As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse. America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty. People like Roof should be made to suffer. Except of course when the execute people who aren't guilty, or have the misfortune of having commited the offence in a different state, or happen to be treated differently because of race / social class / press coverage etc. Of course by the time it gets around to most peoples executions, they're often changed people, having spent 12-25 years in prison, often dramatically so. The real problem with execution is it doesn't really do anything other than kill someone else It removes the possibility of them doing it again, acts as a deterrent and applies a just retribution for their act.
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derben

22 Jun 15 11.35am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 11.32am

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 11.02am

As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse.

America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty.
People like Roof should be made to suffer.

Of course by the time it gets around to most peoples executions, they're often changed people, having spent 12-25 years in prison, often dramatically so.

The real problem with execution is it doesn't really do anything other than kill someone else

It removes the possibility of them doing it again, acts as a deterrent and applies a just retribution for their act.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jun 15 11.37am
Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 11.32am Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 11.02am As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse. America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty. People like Roof should be made to suffer. javascripttylebut(0); Wrong. Society should not make people suffer, That is not what a civilised society needs. If he is a danger to society then he should be removed from it. Emotional responses are totally understandable but cannot be the basis of a legal system. The electric chair is an abomination and although I can accept that there might be a case made for the execution of mass killers, I am not in favour of it. Any execution should be carried out painlessly and the United States or any other country that carries out barbaric executions should be ashamed. It's not like it has even been shown to reduce murder. Retribution should not be state funded, even for murdering scum like this man. Entirely agree with this, except for the execution bit, and even then, when you do have executions, I agree. Notably most executions are 'pretend humane' in so much as it looks humane to those witnessing and conducting it. In reality something like a shotgun, 12ga, both barrels to the back of the head, would be a pretty quick and painless death (where as lethal injection arguably makes it impossible for the victim to manifest pain). Of course a quick, painless but brutal to witness execution wouldn't be popular... In reality, there are very few humane ways of killing someone, ones that would inevitably be problematic (ie really brutal, pleasurable or have medical legal implications) "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 22 Jun 15 11.37am

Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 11.32am

Quote black eagle. at 22 Jun 2015 11.02am

As i mentioned before on here Roof deserves the electric chair for what he did,he is pure evil and showed no remorse.

America and other countries are doing the right thing having the death penalty.

People like Roof should be made to suffer.

Entirely agree with this, except for the execution bit, and even then, when you do have executions, I agree.

Notably most executions are 'pretend humane' in so much as it looks humane to those witnessing and conducting it. In reality something like a shotgun, 12ga, both barrels to the back of the head, would be a pretty quick and painless death (where as lethal injection arguably makes it impossible for the victim to manifest pain). Of course a quick, painless but brutal to witness execution wouldn't be popular...

In reality, there are very few humane ways of killing someone, ones that would inevitably be problematic (ie really brutal, pleasurable or have medical legal implications)

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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TheJudge 22 Jun 15 11.37am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 11.26am Quote TheJudge at 22 Jun 2015 10.47am Provocation does not justify violence. What sort of world will we have if we regress to that position ? I am provoked every day by what I see other people do and say. I am not planning on killing any of them. You are just making excuses for savage and irrational behaviour. Lampoonery and satire have been part of western society for hundreds of years. I'm not saying it justifies violence, however by its very defintion, it does cause it, and there is a very big difference in terms of causation and blame, when an incident is provoked as opposed to unprovoked. Obviously those responsible for violence have to be dealt with, but we should be cautious about subscribing those provoking others as blameless in all this. So they are to blame for exercising their rights to make a statement ? So if I come round your house and kill you because I don't agree with your opinion, it's your fault for provoking me ? Think about the ramifications of what you are suggesting.
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TheJudge

22 Jun 15 11.37am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jun 2015 11.26am

So they are to blame for exercising their rights to make a statement ?
So if I come round your house and kill you because I don't agree with your opinion, it's your fault for provoking me ?
Think about the ramifications of what you are suggesting.

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