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bubble wrap Carparks in South East London 15 Jul 14 3.27pm | |
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Quote c_block_shedevil at 15 Jul 2014 2.41pm
Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.36am
Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 10.34am
Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.22am
Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 8.33am
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 9.36pm
Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 7.04pm
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 5.25pm
Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...
What about the flag with the skull and crossbones displayed at Selhurst, This could be deemed as promoting Pirates. You have more chance of bumping into a pirate than a slave these days. People are far to quick to worry themselves silly about other people being offended by something that in truth they probably don't give a rats arse about.
Has anyone actually complained about the flag, Anyone said they were deeply offended by the flag? No don't thinks so. Just trying to stick your beak in for the sake of it, Will get myself a huge BNP flag to give you something to really get your knickers in a twist about.
A case for both flags to be banned? Get back in the kitchen, Man talk going on.
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Icepick Tony Chester 15 Jul 14 3.37pm | |
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Quote Mapletree at 15 Jul 2014 10.53am
Quote Stirlingsays at 15 Jul 2014 10.49am
Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.33am
Yes and no. You've got to have freedom of expression, but there should be boundaries.
Take that Trotsky!
What have I done....
"They got his own song 'He's just too good for you', it's quite unbelievable but when you see it and he's facing up someone - I actually feel sorry for them, 'Cos he actually is" - Ian Holloway |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 15 Jul 14 6.34pm | |
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Quote c_block_shedevil at 15 Jul 2014 2.41pm
Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.36am
Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 10.34am
Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.22am
Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 8.33am
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 9.36pm
Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 7.04pm
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 5.25pm
Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...
What about the flag with the skull and crossbones displayed at Selhurst, This could be deemed as promoting Pirates. You have more chance of bumping into a pirate than a slave these days. People are far to quick to worry themselves silly about other people being offended by something that in truth they probably don't give a rats arse about.
Has anyone actually complained about the flag, Anyone said they were deeply offended by the flag? No don't thinks so. Just trying to stick your beak in for the sake of it, Will get myself a huge BNP flag to give you something to really get your knickers in a twist about.
A case for both flags to be banned? They don't have the same history though do they. The Union and Cross of St George were not flags flown by the Confederate South and in defence of the right to own slaves. They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000). The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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MikeT Burlington (Toronto Area) 15 Jul 14 7.23pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm
They don't have the same history though do they. The Union and Cross of St George were not flags flown by the Confederate South and in defence of the right to own slaves. They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000). The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements. Jamie, it's clear that appealing to logic and reason is wasted in this thread. There are obviously a number of people who value their freedom of expression above the club's reputation, and are willing to let the chips fall where they may. I suspect that most of this discussion is somewhat moot anyway. The club is already well aware of the negative feedback that arose from a brief TV closeup in the home game again Man City, and in discussion with the HF was able to prevent further escalation of the issue in subsequent games. Knowing this, I can't seem them allowing anybody to display the flag at Selhurst. They were certainly not shy about inhibiting Man U supporters freedom of expression to wear Cantona masks, since it would cause offence to a large number of Palace supporters.
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Stirlingsays 15 Jul 14 7.55pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm
They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000). The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.
Slavery was the last straw for the South but by far not the only one.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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goodersgold Hastings 15 Jul 14 8.00pm | |
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Quote c_block_shedevil at 15 Jul 2014 2.41pm
Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.36am
Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 10.34am
Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.22am
Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 8.33am
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 9.36pm
Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 7.04pm
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 5.25pm
Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...
What about the flag with the skull and crossbones displayed at Selhurst, This could be deemed as promoting Pirates. You have more chance of bumping into a pirate than a slave these days. People are far to quick to worry themselves silly about other people being offended by something that in truth they probably don't give a rats arse about.
Has anyone actually complained about the flag, Anyone said they were deeply offended by the flag? No don't thinks so. Just trying to stick your beak in for the sake of it, Will get myself a huge BNP flag to give you something to really get your knickers in a twist about.
A case for both flags to be banned?
The world was a mess but his hair was perfect! |
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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 15 Jul 14 8.21pm | |
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Quote goodersgold at 15 Jul 2014 8.00pm
Quote c_block_shedevil at 15 Jul 2014 2.41pm
Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.36am
Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 10.34am
Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.22am
Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 8.33am
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 9.36pm
Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 7.04pm
Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 5.25pm
Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...
What about the flag with the skull and crossbones displayed at Selhurst, This could be deemed as promoting Pirates. You have more chance of bumping into a pirate than a slave these days. People are far to quick to worry themselves silly about other people being offended by something that in truth they probably don't give a rats arse about.
Has anyone actually complained about the flag, Anyone said they were deeply offended by the flag? No don't thinks so. Just trying to stick your beak in for the sake of it, Will get myself a huge BNP flag to give you something to really get your knickers in a twist about.
A case for both flags to be banned?
As a Welshman I agree 100%
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SloveniaDave Tirana, Albania 16 Jul 14 12.05am | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 15 Jul 2014 7.55pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm
They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000). The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.
Slavery was the last straw for the South but by far not the only one.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive) |
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Stirlingsays 16 Jul 14 12.41pm | |
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Quote SloveniaDave at 16 Jul 2014 12.05am
It was not the only reason but is was the primary cause of the civil war and almost all other issues still had their roots in the southern states wanting to retain slavery. It wasn't the last straw at all, it was the primary cause.
Just before the civil war the nature of the Northern and Southern economies and social structure were significant factors in causing tension and division. The north was industrial and focused upon cities while the south due to the cotton wheel invention bet all its stock on slave plantations which provided a cotton economy. There was a significant difference between the north and south's view of state and federal rights. This can still be seen today. To many the confederate flag flown in modern times stands for an 'American South' identity. Still I recognise that that racists and agitators and nutcases still like to use it....But that's also true of the St George. It doesn't mean we can't fly it. What else do those who feel 'of the American South' have to fly?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 16 Jul 14 12.46pm | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 15 Jul 2014 7.55pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm
They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000). The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.
Slavery was the last straw for the South but by far not the only one. Definitely, and eventually it would have ended as industrialisation took over. However, the key point is that a flag is a symbol, and represents the presentation of a series of concepts associated with it society. The Confederate Battle Flag cannot be separated from what it represents historically: its a flag that's associated with the Confederacy, slavery, the anti-desegregation movements and of course the KKK. Its possible to reclaim symbols, such as the St Union flag from the NF etc but the Confederate Battle Flag has never really represented anything much beyond 'Southern US Politics' which has been stepped in racialism and racial prejudice since its inception. Its only other association is with 'Rebellion', but again its the rebellion in which the South claimed independency from the North, and one of the key issues in the right of independency was retention of slave labour and racialism - That's why the Klan adopted it because it represented their beliefs. Its a shame, because for Palace it could be a great symbolic flag, it being red and blue, with an association to the 'Rise of the South' / 'The South will Rise Again' only needing the word London added to give it a Selhurst poignancy. All the talk about honouring the confederate dead seems a bit bizarre, as they represented a US that never was (and radically departed from the current US that the same people tend to talk about patriotically). Its interesting that its reappearance in US culture was only really in the 1950s, when Georgia adopted the flag as its state flag whilst presenting a defence of segregation. I think a lot of people who claim the defence of honouring the dead great-great grandfather have essentially picking up on a discourse of 'defence of the indefensible' presented by certain factions in US Southern Politics that represent 'them good old days'. Kind of how politicians talk about 'supporting the troops' rather than discussing the war. Certainly before the 1950s, hardly anyone down south was using the Confederate Battle Flag.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Mapletree Croydon 16 Jul 14 12.49pm | |
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Quote MikeT at 15 Jul 2014 7.23pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm
They don't have the same history though do they. The Union and Cross of St George were not flags flown by the Confederate South and in defence of the right to own slaves. They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000). The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements. Jamie, it's clear that appealing to logic and reason is wasted in this thread. There are obviously a number of people who value their freedom of expression above the club's reputation, and are willing to let the chips fall where they may. I suspect that most of this discussion is somewhat moot anyway. The club is already well aware of the negative feedback that arose from a brief TV closeup in the home game again Man City, and in discussion with the HF was able to prevent further escalation of the issue in subsequent games. Knowing this, I can't seem them allowing anybody to display the flag at Selhurst. They were certainly not shy about inhibiting Man U supporters freedom of expression to wear Cantona masks, since it would cause offence to a large number of Palace supporters.
Great, and I think you are right Now where did I put that old Tamil Tigers flag...
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jamiemartin721 Reading 16 Jul 14 12.51pm | |
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Although in fairness I've never really understood why people feel the need to fly flags all the time in the first place to show 'pride'. Whilst some of those I've met turn out to be decent people, most of them have tended to be fairly lowly educated stupid people, who use phrases 'I'm not a racist but...'. Bloke over the road from my parents flies a Union Jack, as he calls it, I didn't have the heart to tell him that its only the Union Jack if flown from a Ship, or that its upside down.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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