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bubble wrap Flag Carparks in South East London 15 Jul 14 3.27pm

Quote c_block_shedevil at 15 Jul 2014 2.41pm

Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.36am

Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 10.34am

Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.22am

Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 8.33am

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 9.36pm

Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 7.04pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 5.25pm

Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...


We're not discussing semantics here. It's a straight forward question of whether we , as Palace supporters, are happy to see a flag that most regard as a racist flag in the Park. No semantics about that.


Don't get me wrong,I agree with you in the fact that it can be seen as offensive, so is. I was alluding to different posters having different opinions on the flag.

What about the flag with the skull and crossbones displayed at Selhurst, This could be deemed as promoting Pirates. You have more chance of bumping into a pirate than a slave these days. People are far to quick to worry themselves silly about other people being offended by something that in truth they probably don't give a rats arse about.


People who are concerned about how others feel = liberal. People who don't care what others think = right wing.

Has anyone actually complained about the flag, Anyone said they were deeply offended by the flag? No don't thinks so. Just trying to stick your beak in for the sake of it, Will get myself a huge BNP flag to give you something to really get your knickers in a twist about.


A few people on this thread have complained about the flag.
If you want to fly a BNP flag, fill yer boots. But they are SOOO yesterday-it's all about EDL and Britain First now innit.


The BNP fly the union flag. The EDL have claimed st George's cross as their own.

A case for both flags to be banned?

Get back in the kitchen, Man talk going on.

 

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Icepick Tony Flag Chester 15 Jul 14 3.37pm Send a Private Message to Icepick Tony Add Icepick Tony as a friend

Quote Mapletree at 15 Jul 2014 10.53am

Quote Stirlingsays at 15 Jul 2014 10.49am

Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.33am

Yes and no. You've got to have freedom of expression, but there should be boundaries.
That's the second thing that's made me laugh today.


Edited by nickgusset (15 Jul 2014 10.35am)


I counter your laugh with an ice cream in the face.

Take that Trotsky!


Nah, that must be a typo. Should read icepick.

What have I done....

 


"They got his own song 'He's just too good for you', it's quite unbelievable but when you see it and he's facing up someone - I actually feel sorry for them, 'Cos he actually is" - Ian Holloway

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 15 Jul 14 6.34pm

Quote c_block_shedevil at 15 Jul 2014 2.41pm

Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.36am

Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 10.34am

Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.22am

Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 8.33am

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 9.36pm

Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 7.04pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 5.25pm

Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...


We're not discussing semantics here. It's a straight forward question of whether we , as Palace supporters, are happy to see a flag that most regard as a racist flag in the Park. No semantics about that.


Don't get me wrong,I agree with you in the fact that it can be seen as offensive, so is. I was alluding to different posters having different opinions on the flag.

What about the flag with the skull and crossbones displayed at Selhurst, This could be deemed as promoting Pirates. You have more chance of bumping into a pirate than a slave these days. People are far to quick to worry themselves silly about other people being offended by something that in truth they probably don't give a rats arse about.


People who are concerned about how others feel = liberal. People who don't care what others think = right wing.

Has anyone actually complained about the flag, Anyone said they were deeply offended by the flag? No don't thinks so. Just trying to stick your beak in for the sake of it, Will get myself a huge BNP flag to give you something to really get your knickers in a twist about.


A few people on this thread have complained about the flag.
If you want to fly a BNP flag, fill yer boots. But they are SOOO yesterday-it's all about EDL and Britain First now innit.


The BNP fly the union flag. The EDL have claimed st George's cross as their own.

A case for both flags to be banned?

They don't have the same history though do they. The Union and Cross of St George were not flags flown by the Confederate South and in defence of the right to own slaves.

They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000).

The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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MikeT Flag Burlington (Toronto Area) 15 Jul 14 7.23pm Send a Private Message to MikeT Add MikeT as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm

They don't have the same history though do they. The Union and Cross of St George were not flags flown by the Confederate South and in defence of the right to own slaves.

They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000).

The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.


Jamie, it's clear that appealing to logic and reason is wasted in this thread. There are obviously a number of people who value their freedom of expression above the club's reputation, and are willing to let the chips fall where they may.

I suspect that most of this discussion is somewhat moot anyway. The club is already well aware of the negative feedback that arose from a brief TV closeup in the home game again Man City, and in discussion with the HF was able to prevent further escalation of the issue in subsequent games. Knowing this, I can't seem them allowing anybody to display the flag at Selhurst. They were certainly not shy about inhibiting Man U supporters freedom of expression to wear Cantona masks, since it would cause offence to a large number of Palace supporters.


Edited by MikeT (15 Jul 2014 7.52pm)

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 15 Jul 14 7.55pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm


They don't have the same history though do they. The Union and Cross of St George were not flags flown by the Confederate South and in defence of the right to own slaves.

They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000).

The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.



It's a mistake to put down slavery as the only reason the South looked to secede from the union and the North and South came to blows.

Slavery was the last straw for the South but by far not the only one.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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goodersgold Flag Hastings 15 Jul 14 8.00pm

Quote c_block_shedevil at 15 Jul 2014 2.41pm

Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.36am

Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 10.34am

Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.22am

Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 8.33am

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 9.36pm

Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 7.04pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 5.25pm

Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...


We're not discussing semantics here. It's a straight forward question of whether we , as Palace supporters, are happy to see a flag that most regard as a racist flag in the Park. No semantics about that.


Don't get me wrong,I agree with you in the fact that it can be seen as offensive, so is. I was alluding to different posters having different opinions on the flag.

What about the flag with the skull and crossbones displayed at Selhurst, This could be deemed as promoting Pirates. You have more chance of bumping into a pirate than a slave these days. People are far to quick to worry themselves silly about other people being offended by something that in truth they probably don't give a rats arse about.


People who are concerned about how others feel = liberal. People who don't care what others think = right wing.

Has anyone actually complained about the flag, Anyone said they were deeply offended by the flag? No don't thinks so. Just trying to stick your beak in for the sake of it, Will get myself a huge BNP flag to give you something to really get your knickers in a twist about.


A few people on this thread have complained about the flag.
If you want to fly a BNP flag, fill yer boots. But they are SOOO yesterday-it's all about EDL and Britain First now innit.


The BNP fly the union flag. The EDL have claimed st George's cross as their own.

A case for both flags to be banned?


Like it or not a huge number of English/ british are more than proud of our flag and will never feel embarrassed to fly it .
Regardless of what group uses it or is offended by it.
I couldn't give 2 f-cks who is upset by it.
This is England after all

 


The world was a mess but his hair was perfect!

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Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 15 Jul 14 8.21pm Send a Private Message to Y Ddraig Goch Add Y Ddraig Goch as a friend

Quote goodersgold at 15 Jul 2014 8.00pm

Quote c_block_shedevil at 15 Jul 2014 2.41pm

Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.36am

Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 10.34am

Quote nickgusset at 15 Jul 2014 10.22am

Quote bubble wrap at 15 Jul 2014 8.33am

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 9.36pm

Quote adrian b at 14 Jul 2014 7.04pm

Quote nickgusset at 14 Jul 2014 5.25pm

Gotta love the hol. Who would've thought we'd discuss flag semantics...


We're not discussing semantics here. It's a straight forward question of whether we , as Palace supporters, are happy to see a flag that most regard as a racist flag in the Park. No semantics about that.


Don't get me wrong,I agree with you in the fact that it can be seen as offensive, so is. I was alluding to different posters having different opinions on the flag.

What about the flag with the skull and crossbones displayed at Selhurst, This could be deemed as promoting Pirates. You have more chance of bumping into a pirate than a slave these days. People are far to quick to worry themselves silly about other people being offended by something that in truth they probably don't give a rats arse about.


People who are concerned about how others feel = liberal. People who don't care what others think = right wing.

Has anyone actually complained about the flag, Anyone said they were deeply offended by the flag? No don't thinks so. Just trying to stick your beak in for the sake of it, Will get myself a huge BNP flag to give you something to really get your knickers in a twist about.


A few people on this thread have complained about the flag.
If you want to fly a BNP flag, fill yer boots. But they are SOOO yesterday-it's all about EDL and Britain First now innit.


The BNP fly the union flag. The EDL have claimed st George's cross as their own.

A case for both flags to be banned?


Like it or not a huge number of English/ british are more than proud of our flag and will never feel embarrassed to fly it .
Regardless of what group uses it or is offended by it.
I couldn't give 2 f-cks who is upset by it.
This is England after all

As a Welshman I agree 100%

 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

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SloveniaDave Flag Tirana, Albania 16 Jul 14 12.05am Send a Private Message to SloveniaDave Add SloveniaDave as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 15 Jul 2014 7.55pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm


They don't have the same history though do they. The Union and Cross of St George were not flags flown by the Confederate South and in defence of the right to own slaves.

They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000).

The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.



It's a mistake to put down slavery as the only reason the South looked to secede from the union and the North and South came to blows.

Slavery was the last straw for the South but by far not the only one.


It was not the only reason but is was the primary cause of the civil war and almost all other issues still had their roots in the southern states wanting to retain slavery. It wasn't the last straw at all, it was the primary cause.

 


Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

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Stirlingsays Flag 16 Jul 14 12.41pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote SloveniaDave at 16 Jul 2014 12.05am

It was not the only reason but is was the primary cause of the civil war and almost all other issues still had their roots in the southern states wanting to retain slavery. It wasn't the last straw at all, it was the primary cause.


I think it's fair to say that the causes of the war weren't just focused upon slavery but that.....it's true that slavery was the major cause.....But that the exclusion of other factors....Which is basically what most people do now...Doesn't do the reality justice.

Just before the civil war the nature of the Northern and Southern economies and social structure were significant factors in causing tension and division. The north was industrial and focused upon cities while the south due to the cotton wheel invention bet all its stock on slave plantations which provided a cotton economy.

There was a significant difference between the north and south's view of state and federal rights. This can still be seen today.

The belief in the south that Washington was anti south and pushed northern interests first ( again this attitude still lingers). Lincoln was seen as pro-northern interests and even though secession had started before his election once he was in place the die was cast.

To many the confederate flag flown in modern times stands for an 'American South' identity. Still I recognise that that racists and agitators and nutcases still like to use it....But that's also true of the St George. It doesn't mean we can't fly it.

What else do those who feel 'of the American South' have to fly?


Edited by Stirlingsays (16 Jul 2014 12.43pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 16 Jul 14 12.46pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 15 Jul 2014 7.55pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm


They don't have the same history though do they. The Union and Cross of St George were not flags flown by the Confederate South and in defence of the right to own slaves.

They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000).

The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.



It's a mistake to put down slavery as the only reason the South looked to secede from the union and the North and South came to blows.

Slavery was the last straw for the South but by far not the only one.

Definitely, and eventually it would have ended as industrialisation took over. However, the key point is that a flag is a symbol, and represents the presentation of a series of concepts associated with it society.

The Confederate Battle Flag cannot be separated from what it represents historically: its a flag that's associated with the Confederacy, slavery, the anti-desegregation movements and of course the KKK.

Its possible to reclaim symbols, such as the St Union flag from the NF etc but the Confederate Battle Flag has never really represented anything much beyond 'Southern US Politics' which has been stepped in racialism and racial prejudice since its inception.

Its only other association is with 'Rebellion', but again its the rebellion in which the South claimed independency from the North, and one of the key issues in the right of independency was retention of slave labour and racialism - That's why the Klan adopted it because it represented their beliefs.

Its a shame, because for Palace it could be a great symbolic flag, it being red and blue, with an association to the 'Rise of the South' / 'The South will Rise Again' only needing the word London added to give it a Selhurst poignancy.

All the talk about honouring the confederate dead seems a bit bizarre, as they represented a US that never was (and radically departed from the current US that the same people tend to talk about patriotically).

Its interesting that its reappearance in US culture was only really in the 1950s, when Georgia adopted the flag as its state flag whilst presenting a defence of segregation. I think a lot of people who claim the defence of honouring the dead great-great grandfather have essentially picking up on a discourse of 'defence of the indefensible' presented by certain factions in US Southern Politics that represent 'them good old days'. Kind of how politicians talk about 'supporting the troops' rather than discussing the war.

Certainly before the 1950s, hardly anyone down south was using the Confederate Battle Flag.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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Mapletree Flag Croydon 16 Jul 14 12.49pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Quote MikeT at 15 Jul 2014 7.23pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 15 Jul 2014 6.34pm

They don't have the same history though do they. The Union and Cross of St George were not flags flown by the Confederate South and in defence of the right to own slaves.

They also weren't associated with the Jim Crow states, and the anti-desegregation movement by those states actual legislatures (Georgia State adopting the flag from the 1950s officially until 2000).

The ultimate difference is that a few idiot Nazis with british flags, vs US states and large scale racial movements.


Jamie, it's clear that appealing to logic and reason is wasted in this thread. There are obviously a number of people who value their freedom of expression above the club's reputation, and are willing to let the chips fall where they may.

I suspect that most of this discussion is somewhat moot anyway. The club is already well aware of the negative feedback that arose from a brief TV closeup in the home game again Man City, and in discussion with the HF was able to prevent further escalation of the issue in subsequent games. Knowing this, I can't seem them allowing anybody to display the flag at Selhurst. They were certainly not shy about inhibiting Man U supporters freedom of expression to wear Cantona masks, since it would cause offence to a large number of Palace supporters.


Edited by MikeT (15 Jul 2014 7.52pm)

Great, and I think you are right

Now where did I put that old Tamil Tigers flag...

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 16 Jul 14 12.51pm

Although in fairness I've never really understood why people feel the need to fly flags all the time in the first place to show 'pride'. Whilst some of those I've met turn out to be decent people, most of them have tended to be fairly lowly educated stupid people, who use phrases 'I'm not a racist but...'.

Bloke over the road from my parents flies a Union Jack, as he calls it, I didn't have the heart to tell him that its only the Union Jack if flown from a Ship, or that its upside down.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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