Julian Assange

This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.

Julian Assange

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Page 12 of 17 < 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 >

Stirlingsays 01 Mar 13 1.55pm
Quote npn at 01 Mar 2013 1.15pm (it strikes me that they'd be far more likely to get the UK to extradict him than Sweden, since we are more likely to bend over and say "thank you, sir, may I have another" but even that is largely irrelevant). All this is kind of a myth, statistically we refuse more extraditions to the US than the other way round. A pro-American Tory party just refused the extradition of Gary McKinnon in a major high profile case. While the extradition treaty could be structured better....It's not as though America has been blocking extraditions to us left, right and centre......Or 'center' as they would put it. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays

01 Mar 13 1.55pm

Quote npn at 01 Mar 2013 1.15pm

(it strikes me that they'd be far more likely to get the UK to extradict him than Sweden, since we are more likely to bend over and say "thank you, sir, may I have another" but even that is largely irrelevant).

All this is kind of a myth, statistically we refuse more extraditions to the US than the other way round.

A pro-American Tory party just refused the extradition of Gary McKinnon in a major high profile case.

While the extradition treaty could be structured better....It's not as though America has been blocking extraditions to us left, right and centre......Or 'center' as they would put it.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Mar 13 2.52pm
Quote SloveniaDave at 01 Mar 2013 1.40pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Mar 2013 1.20pm Quote SloveniaDave at 01 Mar 2013 12.49pm Fundamentally disagree. Both Governments and companies need, and have the right to privacy in decision making. Of course if there are substantive cases of abuse of power, corruption or possible criminal acts then they should be exposed but the problem with WIkileaks is that it is indescriminate and the vast majority of what they have published is most definitely not in the public interest. All Wikileaks has achieved, is to make Governments more secretive, in that they are much less likely now to put things in writing - especially in terms of information which informs decisions and opinions - and who can blame them. They do, as anyone does, but that isn't the case really here. Whilst some of the information released by Wikileaks is clearly not public interest, a lot of the Iraq and Guantanmo bay stuff is clearly public interest, and typically information that governments have slapped 'National Security' on, not because its actually central to the security of the nation, but that its essential to the image of that government. Remember, these documents are their own published materials for circulation (and in theory are subject to the Freedom of Information act anyhow). Slapping 'national security' over Apache gunship camera recordings because its embrassing to the military isn't what protecting secrets is supposed to be about. Rights to privacy as far as governments and companys go, should be used to protect them from criticism, embrassment or shame of their actions. Fully agree. On the point about disclosure though, all countries have degrees of classification which will include a level where the FoI Act would not apply, and quite rightly. If, for example, our Ambasasador in Molvania wants to provide an open and accurate assessment of the Government and politicians where he is based, this will almost certainly include his opinion and/or information on the level of corruption in the country. This is information which, if it were to be leaked, would damage relations. For full and honest information to be provided, the documents must be protected from disclosure or they would not be written at all. A very substantial part of the UK-related wikileaks are FCO telegrams whose disclosure does nothing except harm the UK. FoI would cover those FCO telegrams presumably as they are offical correspondence, and as such auditable by requirement. My experience is that governments are notoriously bad at cover ups and hiding information, because they essentially meetings almost always have minutes and audit requirements. They should definately be more careful with sensitive or actual national secrets, but very little that appears on wikileaks seems to me to be something that would be damaging in a real sense (embrassing maybe, but if an FCO telegram contains information that would damage relations, one must ask the question why would you send that? Unless of course its true, and you've just recently told the Molvanian leaders a pack of lies, then run off to tell their boss something entirely different. Or is it that the ego of politicians is so weak that they cannot handle criticism, and lack the capacity of an X-Factor candidate to handle the truth. Sadly, having experience of working with governments I suspect the later. Politicians aren't very good when you confront them with information that makes them look bad, the poor darlings, their messianic complex egocentricty just can't handle that* I remember working on a project that the dispicable Peter 'dracula' Mandleson was overseeing, and he stormed in angry because he'd been in a meeting in France, and all the French MP's had a later edition Blackberry than he had. Consequently, a project was funded and launched to update all blackberrys to the latest model (one up from the french EU delegations).... That sadly, I suspect is the truth of politicians. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721

Reading 01 Mar 13 2.52pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 01 Mar 2013 1.40pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Mar 2013 1.20pm

Quote SloveniaDave at 01 Mar 2013 12.49pm
Fundamentally disagree. Both Governments and companies need, and have the right to privacy in decision making. Of course if there are substantive cases of abuse of power, corruption or possible criminal acts then they should be exposed but the problem with WIkileaks is that it is indescriminate and the vast majority of what they have published is most definitely not in the public interest. All Wikileaks has achieved, is to make Governments more secretive, in that they are much less likely now to put things in writing - especially in terms of information which informs decisions and opinions - and who can blame them.

They do, as anyone does, but that isn't the case really here. Whilst some of the information released by Wikileaks is clearly not public interest, a lot of the Iraq and Guantanmo bay stuff is clearly public interest, and typically information that governments have slapped 'National Security' on, not because its actually central to the security of the nation, but that its essential to the image of that government.

Remember, these documents are their own published materials for circulation (and in theory are subject to the Freedom of Information act anyhow). Slapping 'national security' over Apache gunship camera recordings because its embrassing to the military isn't what protecting secrets is supposed to be about.

Rights to privacy as far as governments and companys go, should be used to protect them from criticism, embrassment or shame of their actions.

Fully agree. On the point about disclosure though, all countries have degrees of classification which will include a level where the FoI Act would not apply, and quite rightly.

If, for example, our Ambasasador in Molvania wants to provide an open and accurate assessment of the Government and politicians where he is based, this will almost certainly include his opinion and/or information on the level of corruption in the country. This is information which, if it were to be leaked, would damage relations. For full and honest information to be provided, the documents must be protected from disclosure or they would not be written at all.

A very substantial part of the UK-related wikileaks are FCO telegrams whose disclosure does nothing except harm the UK.

FoI would cover those FCO telegrams presumably as they are offical correspondence, and as such auditable by requirement.

My experience is that governments are notoriously bad at cover ups and hiding information, because they essentially meetings almost always have minutes and audit requirements.

They should definately be more careful with sensitive or actual national secrets, but very little that appears on wikileaks seems to me to be something that would be damaging in a real sense (embrassing maybe, but if an FCO telegram contains information that would damage relations, one must ask the question why would you send that? Unless of course its true, and you've just recently told the Molvanian leaders a pack of lies, then run off to tell their boss something entirely different.

Or is it that the ego of politicians is so weak that they cannot handle criticism, and lack the capacity of an X-Factor candidate to handle the truth.

Sadly, having experience of working with governments I suspect the later. Politicians aren't very good when you confront them with information that makes them look bad, the poor darlings, their messianic complex egocentricty just can't handle that*

I remember working on a project that the dispicable Peter 'dracula' Mandleson was overseeing, and he stormed in angry because he'd been in a meeting in France, and all the French MP's had a later edition Blackberry than he had. Consequently, a project was funded and launched to update all blackberrys to the latest model (one up from the french EU delegations)....

That sadly, I suspect is the truth of politicians.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

Johnny Eagles berlin 01 Mar 13 3.14pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Mar 2013 2.52pm I remember working on a project that the dispicable Peter 'dracula' Mandleson was overseeing, and he stormed in angry because he'd been in a meeting in France, and all the French MP's had a later edition Blackberry than he had. Consequently, a project was funded and launched to update all blackberrys to the latest model (one up from the french EU delegations).... That sadly, I suspect is the truth of politicians. Yep. I was at a posh gala dinner for work with loads of politicians and think tankers and so on and was sat next to this one guy (former permanent undersecretary in health ministry, I think he was) and he told me about some of his experiences of working at the EU... let's just say UKIP doesn't exaggerate. ...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...
Alert a moderator to this post

Johnny Eagles

berlin 01 Mar 13 3.14pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Mar 2013 2.52pm

Yep.

I was at a posh gala dinner for work with loads of politicians and think tankers and so on and was sat next to this one guy (former permanent undersecretary in health ministry, I think he was) and he told me about some of his experiences of working at the EU... let's just say UKIP doesn't exaggerate.

...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays 01 Mar 13 3.26pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 01 Mar 2013 3.14pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Mar 2013 2.52pm I remember working on a project that the dispicable Peter 'dracula' Mandleson was overseeing, and he stormed in angry because he'd been in a meeting in France, and all the French MP's had a later edition Blackberry than he had. Consequently, a project was funded and launched to update all blackberrys to the latest model (one up from the french EU delegations).... That sadly, I suspect is the truth of politicians. Yep. I was at a posh gala dinner for work with loads of politicians and think tankers and so on and was sat next to this one guy (former permanent undersecretary in health ministry, I think he was) and he told me about some of his experiences of working at the EU... let's just say UKIP doesn't exaggerate. I was at the fish & chip shop last night.....My mate Bert threw up over his onion rings. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays

01 Mar 13 3.26pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 01 Mar 2013 3.14pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Mar 2013 2.52pm

Yep.

I was at the fish & chip shop last night.....My mate Bert threw up over his onion rings.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Alert a moderator to this post

Johnny Eagles berlin 01 Mar 13 3.29pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Mar 2013 3.26pm I was at the fish & chip shop last night.....My mate Bert threw up over his onion rings. You've lost me there, Stirling. ...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...
Alert a moderator to this post

Johnny Eagles

berlin 01 Mar 13 3.29pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Mar 2013 3.26pm

I was at the fish & chip shop last night.....My mate Bert threw up over his onion rings.

You've lost me there, Stirling.

...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays 01 Mar 13 3.40pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 01 Mar 2013 3.29pm Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Mar 2013 3.26pm I was at the fish & chip shop last night.....My mate Bert threw up over his onion rings. You've lost me there, Stirling. I wish I could say there was some snappy connection from Bert's onion rings to Jamies and your connection to important highfliers......But hey...Many an important decision has taken place in that chipshop...Curry sauce or mayonnaise...These are the decisions that really make a difference. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Mar 2013 3.44pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays

01 Mar 13 3.40pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 01 Mar 2013 3.29pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Mar 2013 3.26pm

I was at the fish & chip shop last night.....My mate Bert threw up over his onion rings.

You've lost me there, Stirling.

I wish I could say there was some snappy connection from Bert's onion rings to Jamies and your connection to important highfliers......But hey...Many an important decision has taken place in that chipshop...Curry sauce or mayonnaise...These are the decisions that really make a difference.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Mar 2013 3.44pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays 01 Mar 13 3.41pm
Wikichips. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays

01 Mar 13 3.41pm

Wikichips.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Mar 13 3.46pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Mar 2013 3.40pm Quote Johnny Eagles at 01 Mar 2013 3.29pm Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Mar 2013 3.26pm I was at the fish & chip shop last night.....My mate Bert threw up over his onion rings. You've lost me there, Stirling. I wish I could say there was some snappy connection from Bert's onion rings to Jamies and your connection to important highfliers......But hey...Many an important decision has taken place in that chipshop...Curry sauce or mayonnaise...These are the decisions that really make a difference. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Mar 2013 3.44pm) Unlike the EU "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721

Reading 01 Mar 13 3.46pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Mar 2013 3.40pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 01 Mar 2013 3.29pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 01 Mar 2013 3.26pm

I was at the fish & chip shop last night.....My mate Bert threw up over his onion rings.

You've lost me there, Stirling.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Mar 2013 3.44pm)

Unlike the EU

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

inge Oppdal 01 Mar 13 3.53pm
Assange - collecting information about big companies and authorities and handing it over to you and me for free. Treated as a crook and traitor. Facebook and Google - collecting information about you and me and selling it to big companies (and authorities?). Treated as good businessmen. When Assange is riduculized or labelled in different negative ways, question yourself - who has come forward with the accusations? And why? How bad is it really with the information from Wiki Leaks. Can it also be good for something? Aquila non capit muscas ...
Alert a moderator to this post

inge

Oppdal 01 Mar 13 3.53pm

Assange - collecting information about big companies and authorities and handing it over to you and me for free.
Treated as a crook and traitor.

Facebook and Google - collecting information about you and me and selling it to big companies (and authorities?).
Treated as good businessmen.

When Assange is riduculized or labelled in different negative ways, question yourself - who has come forward with the accusations? And why?
How bad is it really with the information from Wiki Leaks. Can it also be good for something?

Aquila non capit muscas ...

Alert a moderator to this post

Stuk Top half 01 Mar 13 3.58pm
Assange - law breaker, the end. Optimistic as ever
Alert a moderator to this post

Stuk

Top half 01 Mar 13 3.58pm

Assange - law breaker, the end.

Optimistic as ever

Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Mar 13 4.11pm
Quote Stuk at 01 Mar 2013 3.58pm Assange - law breaker, the end. Possibly not, even the US aren't entirely sure of whether he's even committed a crime (not being a US citizen, or employed by a foriegn power, espionage is tricky), particually given that sensative personal data is redacted from wikileaks, and most of it is technically cover by freedom of information. The whole 'aiding the enemy' isn't going to fly in a court of law, as a crime involves intent. Theft, well he didn't steal it, and recieving stolen goods requires personal intention. Plus, its not trade marked or copyright protected material. Its very hard to say just exactly what crime has been committed? (except possibly rape and pissing off politicians). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721

Reading 01 Mar 13 4.11pm

Quote Stuk at 01 Mar 2013 3.58pm

Assange - law breaker, the end.

Possibly not, even the US aren't entirely sure of whether he's even committed a crime (not being a US citizen, or employed by a foriegn power, espionage is tricky), particually given that sensative personal data is redacted from wikileaks, and most of it is technically cover by freedom of information.

The whole 'aiding the enemy' isn't going to fly in a court of law, as a crime involves intent. Theft, well he didn't steal it, and recieving stolen goods requires personal intention.

Plus, its not trade marked or copyright protected material. Its very hard to say just exactly what crime has been committed? (except possibly rape and pissing off politicians).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

Stuk Top half 01 Mar 13 4.21pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Mar 2013 4.11pm Quote Stuk at 01 Mar 2013 3.58pm Assange - law breaker, the end. Possibly not, even the US aren't entirely sure of whether he's even committed a crime (not being a US citizen, or employed by a foriegn power, espionage is tricky), particually given that sensative personal data is redacted from wikileaks, and most of it is technically cover by freedom of information. The whole 'aiding the enemy' isn't going to fly in a court of law, as a crime involves intent. Theft, well he didn't steal it, and recieving stolen goods requires personal intention. Plus, its not trade marked or copyright protected material. Its very hard to say just exactly what crime has been committed? (except possibly rape and pissing off politicians). I don't know how many timesi have to repeat this in this thread. Our laws. I don't give a f*** about the US/Swedish or the bloody Aussie in question. Optimistic as ever
Alert a moderator to this post

Stuk

Top half 01 Mar 13 4.21pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Mar 2013 4.11pm

Quote Stuk at 01 Mar 2013 3.58pm

Assange - law breaker, the end.

The whole 'aiding the enemy' isn't going to fly in a court of law, as a crime involves intent. Theft, well he didn't steal it, and recieving stolen goods requires personal intention.

Plus, its not trade marked or copyright protected material. Its very hard to say just exactly what crime has been committed? (except possibly rape and pissing off politicians).

I don't know how many timesi have to repeat this in this thread.

Our laws. I don't give a f*** about the US/Swedish or the bloody Aussie in question.

Optimistic as ever

Alert a moderator to this post

Page 12 of 17 < 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 >

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Crystal Palace FC Supporters' Website - The Holmesdale Online

Julian Assange

Site Map

New users

Existing users

Sponsors