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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 26 Jan 22 11.27pm | |
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It took a lot of finding as it's buried deep in the CDC reports, but for those who are interested in the truth, and not in spin, I suggest you read the links below. Not necessarily the full text, just the summary of the conclusions ought to be enough. You need to scroll down through the second to find the chart that was photographed and used in Dr Campbell's video. If you don't want to bother, this is the key paragraph:- "Although the epidemiology of COVID-19 might change as new variants emerge, vaccination remains the safest strategy for averting future SARS-CoV-2 infections, hospitalizations, long-term sequelae, and death. Primary vaccination, additional doses, and booster doses are recommended for all eligible persons. Additional future recommendations for vaccine doses might be warranted as the virus and immunity levels change." Interestingly the questions Dr Campbell asks aren't there at all, so they are all his own. As are the answers. For the CDC view, read the pages referenced above.
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Stirlingsays 27 Jan 22 5.41am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I didn't say I was puzzled by his conclusions! I said I am puzzled on how he reaches them. Bizarre semantics. Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The report asks a number of questions, to which Dr Campbell gives his own answers as though they are definitive. All done using the statistics to prove his points. Something you can't quite seem to credit. Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
He then makes the statement that as we ALL will catch Omicron it won't be long before we all have natural infection, thus somehow making further vaccination pointless. Which is not at all what the report itself concludes. To repeat:- Have you ever caught the common cold? Of course you have. You don't seem to have understood yet that vaccination can't stop you from catching covid. It's a reality that if someone lives long enough then yes....All of them will catch covid just as all will catch a common cold....it's that infectious. Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
"What are the implications for public health practice? Although the epidemiology of COVID-19 might change as new variants emerge, vaccination remains the safest strategy for averting future SARS-CoV-2 infections, hospitalizations, long-term sequelae, and death. Primary vaccination, additional doses, and booster doses are recommended for all eligible persons. Additional future recommendations for vaccine doses might be warranted as the virus and immunity levels change." I don't really have much of an issue with that statement. Campbell doesn't argue against vaccination he just interprets statistics....and if someone watches the video they will see he interprets them correctly. That statement is a view that in some senses I'd agree with but in others there is nuance....what I have an issue with are people like you who then say people should be punished for making different choices. Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
We won't all catch Omicron. It remains unknown whether those who do will retain any immunity better, or worse, than those who are vaccinated, let alone what levels of immunity will exist for those who are vaccinated, but still catch it. If someone lives long enough, yes they will catch it. Immunity strength similar to vaccination effectiveness will differ in an individual...it's not a standard candle. However, if someone has been infected and recovered and continues to encounter covid in their environment their immune system is continually being trained. Natural immunity wanes over different periods of time if it's not being exposed...the MSM have tended to publicise the shortest time frames but it's known to last years. It's a reality that whether someone is vaccinated or have immunity due to prior infection they will eventually catch covid again at some point, because a variant of it will emerge that is different enough to not be recognised by their system. For example, people on average catch flu twice every ten years, not every year precisely because it evolved enough to be different enough.....it's not really about waning as such. Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Weeks ago I suggested that Omicron could be a game changer but until we had some real experience we needed to remain cautious. The brakes have come off over the restrictions we face, now we understand more, but it's far too early to make sweeping assumptions that herd immunity is upon us. You can have that view but I don't really think it's one that reflects reality. But you are free to restrict yourself as much as possible....and if your health is vulnerable I wouldn't necessarily criticise you for it....as infections do increasingly matter the older someone gets. Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Another variant could be just around the corner, which could behave differently. There's no 'could' about it, evolution makes continual variants inevitable. However, the normal course of viruses is to become weaker over time. Spanish flu is still with us and is part of the flu vaccine...it could suddenly alter its course and produce a deadly strain again but it's been weak for a hundred years so that would be highly unexpected. Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The above advice from the CDC is what needs to be reported in the msm, not the conclusions of one enthusiastic YouTuber with a following. That advice on vaccination is continually repeated. You have been quite unfair to this Dr in what he said and nothing in the CDC's advice contradicts what Campbell said. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jan 2022 5.42am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Stirlingsays 27 Jan 22 5.53am | |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
How others use terms is no doubt for them, but when I use them I more apply it to those who are ardently against the vaccine as a general rule, rather than those who appreciate that's an especially valuable tool for certain groups (elderly, vulnerable) and less so for others. It's not the best article I will admit, more a point that people (including anti vax types) more than willingly routinely take medications that have much more of a serious downside (including death) more often then you'd think, and yet are not politically wedded to that, so don't really consider it a problem. Sure, however as both the article itself, and others, admits these vaccines are not long standing....and are liability exempt. The article reads like a puff piece for these vaccines and an attack on anyone who might question.....as if questioning shouldn't itself be a part of what science should be doing. Originally posted by BlueJay
Several estimates put deaths from aspirin at 100 per 1000000 users. And what about paracetomol: "Acetaminophen is the leading cause of acute liver failure in the United States, according to a report published in the British Medical Journal. The same report notes that acetaminophen overdose accounts for 82,000 emergency room visits and 26,000 hospitalizations each year." Yep, drug overuse and misuse is a real and serious problem that is just not talked about or appreciated as much as it should be....I wonder why that is (sarcasm). Originally posted by BlueJay
The politicisation of the vaccine is in large part responsible for suspicion of it in my view. With vast numbers taking it, realistically in adults there is remarkably little demonstrated downside compared to the benefits. From what we know so far it's hard to argue with the assessment that it's safer than the most common over the counter drugs. I appreciate it's not entirely like for like but it terms of perception it's a useful comparison. You may well be right.....in fact for vulnerable groups I think you are right. However, we don't really know enough and the media and government has very much taken the view that only one side should be heard....and that doesn't sit right with me. Also there are lots of other related issues once you get beyond those vulnerable groups and talk about vaccinating health populations, especially children who are going to be around for many decades. But it's a well trodden path that we all have discussed many times. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jan 2022 5.56am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 Jan 22 9.24am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
That advice on vaccination is continually repeated. You have been quite unfair to this Dr in what he said and nothing in the CDC's advice contradicts what Campbell said. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jan 2022 5.42am) It's less what he says as what he doesn't say which is the issue. Whether intentionally, or not, he appears to spin the data in such a way as to leave the impression that those who object to being vaccinated for Covid have been given their justification. Without balancing that with what the report actually says, many times, the presentation cherry-picks bits that his audience want to hear, rather than giving them information they need to hear. He seems a nice guy, so why a non-medical doctor, who isn't a specialist in this area has taken it upon himself to make YouTube videos in retirement can only be speculated about. I cannot though help but wonder if he just likes the attention.
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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 27 Jan 22 10.00am | |
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I’ll be honest, I really don’t get all this continuing sensitivity about vaccination now we are clearly at an end game point in terms of the pandemic stage and moving into a far less authoritarian endemic stage. Vaccines will most likely be offered every year much like… oh yes, the flu vaccine. Big deal. Your choice whether to bother or not. Just like flu. I also still don’t get the narrative of ‘it doesn’t stop you catching it so why bother’ - I’ve no idea where this common man logic of ‘it’s not a cure’ comes from. It’s never been touted as a cure. It’s also a medical impossibility surely. You don’t ‘cure’ viruses. It does the job of any good vaccine and that is to limit the effects and transmission to a manageable level. Proven by how little problems omicron has ended up causing (yes it hasn’t affected the lungs in the same way as previous variants but a high viral load in an unvaccinated person still has high potential for serious complications) due to either exposure or vaccine creating enough resistance to prevent serious symptoms. Also the common cold comparison isn’t a good one from what I understand - common colds are rhinoviruses which are very different in both genetics and symptoms to the influenza virus or COVID and extremely difficult if not impossible to vaccinate against. So in short, what’s all the fuss about no masks, no passes and a yearly optional vaccine, for a virus that is most likely to become less and less threatening over time. Any outraged libertarians annoyed at the full and complete relaxation of rules that you made it sound like would be in force forever? I mean really
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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steeleye20 Croydon 27 Jan 22 11.35am | |
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I am waiting for the first pandemic denial thread.
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BlueJay UK 27 Jan 22 11.44am | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
I am waiting for the first pandemic denial thread. We've got it, it's this one .
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Stirlingsays 27 Jan 22 12.12pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
It's less what he says as what he doesn't say which is the issue. Whether intentionally, or not, he appears to spin the data in such a way as to leave the impression that those who object to being vaccinated for Covid have been given their justification. Without balancing that with what the report actually says, many times, the presentation cherry-picks bits that his audience want to hear, rather than giving them information they need to hear. He seems a nice guy, so why a non-medical doctor, who isn't a specialist in this area has taken it upon himself to make YouTube videos in retirement can only be speculated about. I cannot though help but wonder if he just likes the attention. No, he makes conclusions from the data. He isn't anti vaccine and never has been. However, he isn't going to omit the reality of what statistics show either. He 'likes the attention'. I wouldn't know but he's posted regularly on his channel for over eight years....Besides How can you write that without a twang of self reflection.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 Jan 22 3.24pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
No, he makes conclusions from the data. He isn't anti vaccine and never has been. However, he isn't going to omit the reality of what statistics show either. He 'likes the attention'. I wouldn't know but he's posted regularly on his channel for over eight years....Besides How can you write that without a twang of self reflection. He makes assertions from his own interpretation of the data, and presents them as if they are fact. That’s the reality.
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BlueJay UK 27 Jan 22 4.30pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
You may well be right.....in fact for vulnerable groups I think you are right. However, we don't really know enough and the media and government has very much taken the view that only one side should be heard....and that doesn't sit right with me. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jan 2022 5.56am) Realistically we know, not think, that the elderly and vulnerable being vaccinated is a hugely positive decision healthwise. Any idea that we should wait or we aren't sure, endangers lives and in a round about way dissuades people from making extremely sensible health choices. My point regarding aspirin and the like was that people don't think twice about the long known risks associated (as you didn't in taking it for years on end until you developed health problems) and yet when it comes to this vaccine, the same people often portray a broad negative view, while routinely talking down every plus that can readily be observed as something up for debate. Your approach seems to be primarily about validating your own personal decision, which based on your stated health issues was a political, and health negligent choice. A more considered and less scatter gun approach would be to look at rare vaccine side effects in young males comparison to infection and less personal upside from vaccination. That would at least be useful. That in itself though, would of course also involve having to acknowledge and appreciate the dramatic long term health implications of initial natural infection in adults when compared to vaccination - something you strangely seem to have very little interest or enthusiasm in acknowledging or appreciating.
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Stirlingsays 27 Jan 22 6.31pm | |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
Realistically we know, not think, that the elderly and vulnerable being vaccinated is a hugely positive decision healthwise. Any idea that we should wait or we aren't sure, endangers lives and in a round about way dissuades people from making extremely sensible health choices. Quite unnecessary semantics as to know something you first have to think it. Also I disagree with your implication that people shouldn't think about their health decisions and just do as they are told. Originally posted by BlueJay
My point regarding aspirin and the like was that people don't think twice about the long known risks associated (as you didn't in taking it for years on end until you developed health problems) and yet when it comes to this vaccine, the same people often portray a broad negative view, while routinely talking down every plus that can readily be observed as something up for debate. Well, it's not really a great point though is it, as the health facts on aspirin aren't exactly hidden are they. I certainly knew of them. Again, the point that it's long standing always ill fitted the comparison but obviously not for you. Like the author of the article you seem to be wanting to force a point that corresponds more to your prejudices on those with scepticism. The point is quite weak...'oh look, they take (insert drug) so that means they shouldn't have any questions with the vaccines'. You could make this point regarding any state approved drug and criticise anyone who raises any doubts over how they are approved. In fact I think your suggestion that no doubts should be raised can be criticised itself. Originally posted by BlueJay
Your approach seems to be primarily about validating your own personal decision, which based on your stated health issues was a political, and health negligent choice. A more considered and less scatter gun approach would be to look at rare vaccine side effects in young males comparison to infection and less personal upside from vaccination. That would at least be useful. That in itself though, would of course also involve having to acknowledge and appreciate the dramatic long term health implications of initial natural infection in adults when compared to vaccination - something you strangely seem to have very little interest or enthusiasm in acknowledging or appreciating. My approach has always accepted that each individual has the right over their own health decisions. I can't count the number of times that I've said I have no criticism for those who have taken these vaccines. However, as this paragraph proves you can't say the same for those who haven't....indeed calling people prize prats. My focus has been on both the corporations and government covid policy. You are someone who seems to want to make the point that people shouldn't make decisions that introduce any risk into their lives, even statistically small risks or that all their decisions should be based upon some communistic ideal of what you think (or what you have accepted) is best for the whole....like some ant colony. I don't accept that basic premise is either good for wider society nor the individual going forward. You can criticise my personal choices as I can yours, and while I do hold to certain principles I don't quite strive for that nebulous moral superiority you've always reached for.....mainly as I view it as illusionary and always open to the hypocrisy charge. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jan 2022 7.13pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Stirlingsays 27 Jan 22 6.34pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
He makes assertions from his own interpretation of the data, and presents them as if they are fact. That’s the reality. Well they are fact. Nothing he said was inaccurate.....you yourself seemed to suggest he said nothing new yet chose to criticise him. He said himself at the start of the video that the data confirmed aspects that had been suspected for some time but that the data set was much larger than before. The fact that some commentators had chosen to cast doubt upon natural immunity was for them....there was never any actual hard data to do so. Same as with the claim that vaccination and prior infection resulted in a stronger response against new infection.....it made sense but it apparently doesn't show that in the data set. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Jan 2022 6.54pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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