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silvertop Portishead 08 Mar 22 10.22am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Whilst I completely approve of taking the tough line that the west has adopted I have had some nagging doubt that not all may be wise. Something I heard this morning crystallised those doubts. We want to put pressure on Putin. Not the Russian people. Ensuring they blame him for their problems must be the aim. If they start to blame us, his support will grow, rather than decline. Today I heard that may already be happening. His control over the media will drive public opinion that way whatever we do. So the attacks on the banks, central bank and oligarchs makes sense. Individual companies withdrawing from the Russian market less so. Hitting sporting events hurts perceptions, but not anyone's ability to survive. They may turn out to be the most potent weapon we have. Attacking pride will mean questions will be asked. What do others think? I think that the powerless proles will eat whatever crap he feeds them as there is nothing else on the shelf; and they are conditioned to authoritarian leadership. I think the powerful elite will have access to other sources of information and it is they who hold the cards. But I think Putin knows this well, so his security apparatus is keeping them in check and under his control. Given their limited number and culling of those who have historically opposed him, I suspect this task is not hard. Words I may come to eat, but I finally think that those who suggest that this could all end with Putin being ousted in a coup are pure fantasists.
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Stirlingsays 08 Mar 22 10.51am | |
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Originally posted by silvertop
I think that the powerless proles will eat whatever crap he feeds them as there is nothing else on the shelf; and they are conditioned to authoritarian leadership. I think the powerful elite will have access to other sources of information and it is they who hold the cards. But I think Putin knows this well, so his security apparatus is keeping them in check and under his control. Given their limited number and culling of those who have historically opposed him, I suspect this task is not hard. Words I may come to eat, but I finally think that those who suggest that this could all end with Putin being ousted in a coup are pure fantasists. Indeed, people talk about the oligarchs but the more you look into it you find that it's the military and security forces who form the power base around Putin and he has everyone spying on everyone else. Putin sorted out the oligarchs years ago.....the fact that you get people thinking that Abramovich can actually influence Putin kind of tells you the distance in understanding there is.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Stirlingsays 08 Mar 22 11.06am | |
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A fascinating lecture given in 2018 on what happened after the break up of the Soviet Union in 91 and how events led to Putin taking control. A lot said seems to be highly prophetic.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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BlueJay UK 08 Mar 22 12.02pm | |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
Ah, the battle for the moral high ground rages on! .
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BlueJay UK 08 Mar 22 12.09pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It's always unfortunate when children or those who can't understand an issue are used to make some political point. We all know why it's done because parents or schools see them as extensions of themselves and that's right....but they don't understand so it's always a bit silly to anyone rational. Then again, they are told what to think and in many ways that doesn't change for their older versions either.
Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Mar 2022 10.16am) I would certainly that there can be an element of truth to it here. In a more full on society like Russia, my concern would be that it may have little to do what individual parents wanted, and was a decree from above that had to be followed regardless of personal opinion. It appears that all of those in the hospice may have taken part. But generally I certainly agree yes, that seeing children dragged into marches or holding placards is unfortunate. With everything is can be a matter of degrees and contextualised though. As in seeing children arrested for being at an anti war march, make me consider that the biggest concern isn't their or their parents actions. 10,000 arrests at last count. I wonder how many now.
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BlueJay UK 08 Mar 22 12.11pm | |
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“The Kremlin spent the last 20 years trying to modernize its military,” said Andrei V. Kozyrev, the foreign minister for Russia under Boris Yeltsin, in a post on Twitter. “Much of that budget was stolen and spent on mega-yachts in Cyprus. But as a military advisor you cannot report that to the President. So they reported lies to him instead. Potemkin military.”
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Stirlingsays 08 Mar 22 12.18pm | |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
I would certainly that there can be an element of truth to it here. In a more full on society like Russia, my concern would be that it may have little to do what individual parents wanted, and was a decree from above that had to be followed regardless of personal opinion. It appears that all of those in the hospice may have taken part. But generally I certainly agree yes, that seeing children dragged into marches or holding placards is unfortunate. With everything is can be a matter of degrees and contextualised though. As in seeing children arrested for being at an anti war march, make me consider that the biggest concern isn't their or their parents actions. 10,000 arrests at last count. I wonder how many now. Certainly. Russia has never been a democracy, regardless, the laws on protest in Russia are nothing short of an outrage.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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nead1 08 Mar 22 12.33pm | |
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One of the interesting aspects of this dreadful crisis that has emerged - fortunately in a positive sense - has been the role of the EU. Their response to the refugee crisis has been amazing, they have remained completely united thus far in pushing back on Putin and his cronies and the role they are prepared to play in a military sense has changed significantly. Perhaps, we should not be surprised given the origins of the old EEC in a post WW2 setting but it is nevertheless refreshing. When they need to act with speed, present a united front and show leadership they both can and will - a significant contrast to the UK's chaotic response vis a vis refugees for example. Of course, it was one Nigel Farage who predicted that post Brexit the EU would no longer exist! How wrong he was on that matter and so many other things!
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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 08 Mar 22 12.45pm | |
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Originally posted by nead1
One of the interesting aspects of this dreadful crisis that has emerged - fortunately in a positive sense - has been the role of the EU. Their response to the refugee crisis has been amazing, they have remained completely united thus far in pushing back on Putin and his cronies and the role they are prepared to play in a military sense has changed significantly. Perhaps, we should not be surprised given the origins of the old EEC in a post WW2 setting but it is nevertheless refreshing. When they need to act with speed, present a united front and show leadership they both can and will - a significant contrast to the UK's chaotic response vis a vis refugees for example. Of course, it was one Nigel Farage who predicted that post Brexit the EU would no longer exist! How wrong he was on that matter and so many other things! Yes, they're making jets and tanks as we speak, and calling up hundreds of thousands of people to arms.
Red and Blue Army! |
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Hrolf The Ganger 08 Mar 22 1.03pm | |
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Originally posted by nead1
One of the interesting aspects of this dreadful crisis that has emerged - fortunately in a positive sense - has been the role of the EU. Their response to the refugee crisis has been amazing, they have remained completely united thus far in pushing back on Putin and his cronies and the role they are prepared to play in a military sense has changed significantly. Perhaps, we should not be surprised given the origins of the old EEC in a post WW2 setting but it is nevertheless refreshing. When they need to act with speed, present a united front and show leadership they both can and will - a significant contrast to the UK's chaotic response vis a vis refugees for example. Of course, it was one Nigel Farage who predicted that post Brexit the EU would no longer exist! How wrong he was on that matter and so many other things! Hogwash. NATO countries detirmine policy on military matters, not Brussels. America leads the way with Britain as the senior partner in Europe. Britain has also done more than any EU country in supplying aid to Ukranians. Farage has been highlighting the farce of illegal immigration for a long time, and if we had come up with a way to stop undeserving people effectively jumping the queue to live in Britain, then we would have more provision for real vitims of war. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (08 Mar 2022 1.04pm)
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nead1 08 Mar 22 1.49pm | |
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I am not sure what you are referring to as hogwash. Just for reference, it was on 18th Jan 2018 that Farage made the remarks. He also, of course, graphically posed in front of a giant poster showing queues of migrants - as untrue then as it is now. Britain as the senior partner in Europe? Not in my judgement it isn't despite all the highly convenient posturing of Johnson. More about his political survival than anything else as Rory Stewart so accurately outlined the other day. Supplying aid to Ukranians? Tell that to the 1m+ refugees who have been welcomed by Poland whereas we, by contrast, scramble around to open a processing centre in Calais; according to Patel there is one but in reality there isn't. The true colours of this Brexit led government are there for all to see.
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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 08 Mar 22 1.52pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Hogwash. NATO countries detirmine policy on military matters, not Brussels. America leads the way with Britain as the senior partner in Europe. Britain has also done more than any EU country in supplying aid to Ukranians. Farage has been highlighting the farce of illegal immigration for a long time, and if we had come up with a way to stop undeserving people effectively jumping the queue to live in Britain, then we would have more provision for real vitims of war. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (08 Mar 2022 1.04pm) Do you have a source for this? It seems at odds with everything I've seen reported so far.
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