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becky over the moon 01 Dec 18 2.43pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Last count 1.3m in the EU and rising quickly. It has been estimated by the World Bank that between 4.5 million and 5.5 million Britons live abroad, that's around 7-8% of the UK population and would be about 15% of the working population. To put that in context, only about 0.8% of Americans, 3% of Spanish and 2.1% of Australians are expats. This is what we do. We are world workers Just because some people don't participate that is no reason for them to put the brakes on the others and to cripple our coming generations in the global workforce. Being a part of the EU bloc doesn't just help us work in the EU you know. It gives power. But how many of them are retired? Living and working are two different things and that deffo says living. A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 01 Dec 18 2.43pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Last count 1.3m in the EU and rising quickly.

It has been estimated by the World Bank that between 4.5 million and 5.5 million Britons live abroad, that's around 7-8% of the UK population and would be about 15% of the working population. To put that in context, only about 0.8% of Americans, 3% of Spanish and 2.1% of Australians are expats.

This is what we do. We are world workers

Just because some people don't participate that is no reason for them to put the brakes on the others and to cripple our coming generations in the global workforce.

Being a part of the EU bloc doesn't just help us work in the EU you know. It gives power.

But how many of them are retired? Living and working are two different things and that deffo says living.

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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Mapletree Croydon 01 Dec 18 5.45pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Thanks for confirming what I knew already.....a tiny demographic who wants to ignore the wishes of the majority and change their working environment......Errr...no thanks......Only controlled immigration from the EU please. As for you completely ignoring the downsides of freedom of movement for your tiny demographic benefiting.....unfortunately that says it all Maple and it shows just how our two philosophies are at loggerheads. Your last line is a kind of example of how we end up speaking past each other. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2018 1.34pm) The effect on the significant part of the working population that wishes to be able to work in the EU is just one bad aspect of Brexit. This discussion started specifically about being able to work abroad. We can discuss many other down-sides Becky is right, many expats will be retired. I therefore suggest that maybe 10% of the UK population is working abroad. But the figures don't include the huge number of people like me that visit other countries each week for work. If the argument is that immigration is worse for the UK than our earnings through expatriation are good for it, I would take you to task on that. We have always used migrant workers in certain industries such as agriculture. In any case the 'precariat' is estimated at 15% of the workforce. So the people affected by compression on wages due to low cost migrant workers is probably no more significant than the people going in the other direction. In any case, when you close the door to the one third of immigrants that are from the EU, it is inevitable others will come from non-EU countries. In the end, regardless of what we want the economics will have its affect. And, frankly, we are all doomed. Edited by Mapletree (01 Dec 2018 5.47pm)
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Mapletree

Croydon 01 Dec 18 5.45pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Thanks for confirming what I knew already.....a tiny demographic who wants to ignore the wishes of the majority and change their working environment......Errr...no thanks......Only controlled immigration from the EU please.

As for you completely ignoring the downsides of freedom of movement for your tiny demographic benefiting.....unfortunately that says it all Maple and it shows just how our two philosophies are at loggerheads.

Your last line is a kind of example of how we end up speaking past each other.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2018 1.34pm)

The effect on the significant part of the working population that wishes to be able to work in the EU is just one bad aspect of Brexit. This discussion started specifically about being able to work abroad. We can discuss many other down-sides

Becky is right, many expats will be retired. I therefore suggest that maybe 10% of the UK population is working abroad. But the figures don't include the huge number of people like me that visit other countries each week for work.

If the argument is that immigration is worse for the UK than our earnings through expatriation are good for it, I would take you to task on that. We have always used migrant workers in certain industries such as agriculture. In any case the 'precariat' is estimated at 15% of the workforce. So the people affected by compression on wages due to low cost migrant workers is probably no more significant than the people going in the other direction.

In any case, when you close the door to the one third of immigrants that are from the EU, it is inevitable others will come from non-EU countries.

In the end, regardless of what we want the economics will have its affect. And, frankly, we are all doomed.

Edited by Mapletree (01 Dec 2018 5.47pm)

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Stirlingsays 01 Dec 18 5.58pm
Originally posted by Mapletree The effect on the significant part of the working population that wishes to be able to work in the EU is just one bad aspect of Brexit. This discussion started specifically about being able to work abroad. We can discuss many other down-sides Becky is right, many expats will be retired. I therefore suggest that maybe 10% of the UK population is working abroad. But the figures don't include the huge number of people like me that visit other countries each week for work. If the argument is that immigration is worse for the UK than our earnings through expatriation are good for it, I would take you to task on that. We have always used migrant workers in certain industries such as agriculture. In any case the 'precariat' is estimated at 15% of the workforce. So the people affected by compression on wages due to low cost migrant workers is probably no more significant than the people going in the other direction. In any case, when you close the door to the one third of immigrants that are from the EU, it is inevitable others will come from non-EU countries. In the end, regardless of what we want the economics will have its affect. And, frankly, we are all doomed. Edited by Mapletree (01 Dec 2018 5.47pm) 'We are all doomed'? You're not related to Private Frazer out of Dad's army are you? There's a lot to argue over in your post....but to be honest my thoughts have turned to dinner. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Dec 18 5.58pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

In any case, when you close the door to the one third of immigrants that are from the EU, it is inevitable others will come from non-EU countries.

In the end, regardless of what we want the economics will have its affect. And, frankly, we are all doomed.

Edited by Mapletree (01 Dec 2018 5.47pm)

'We are all doomed'?

You're not related to Private Frazer out of Dad's army are you?

There's a lot to argue over in your post....but to be honest my thoughts have turned to dinner.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steeleye20 Croydon 01 Dec 18 6.04pm
[Link] Here is a link to the Stephen Fry video for your interest.
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steeleye20

Croydon 01 Dec 18 6.04pm

[Link]

Here is a link to the Stephen Fry video for your interest.

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 01 Dec 18 6.11pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays 'We are all doomed'? You're not related to Private Frazer out of Dad's army are you? There's a lot to argue over in your post....but to be honest my thoughts have turned to dinner. How convenient. A good set of fact driven counter arguments to one the most combatiative, never shy to comment orafices on here and he swerves for... Dinner. Also if someone with a clear anti establishment leave narrative can lay out to me the Short term Medium term Long term ...Ways this will be of benefit to the ‘working to lower middle class’, that would be great. Because it’s pretty clear to me in both leave and remain scenarios you lose. Which makes the ‘victory for the common man’ belief even more amusing. The elites and the establishment always win. And they certainly don’t react well to losing, even if it is a tiny, almost imperceptible pin prick (no pun intended). If I were you I’d be more worried about automation and how much universal credit you’re going to be getting. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 01 Dec 18 6.11pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

'We are all doomed'?

You're not related to Private Frazer out of Dad's army are you?

There's a lot to argue over in your post....but to be honest my thoughts have turned to dinner.

How convenient.

A good set of fact driven counter arguments to one the most combatiative, never shy to comment orafices on here and he swerves for...

Dinner.

Also if someone with a clear anti establishment leave narrative can lay out to me the

Short term
Medium term
Long term

...Ways this will be of benefit to the ‘working to lower middle class’, that would be great. Because it’s pretty clear to me in both leave and remain scenarios you lose. Which makes the ‘victory for the common man’ belief even more amusing.

The elites and the establishment always win. And they certainly don’t react well to losing, even if it is a tiny, almost imperceptible pin prick (no pun intended).

If I were you I’d be more worried about automation and how much universal credit you’re going to be getting.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Mapletree Croydon 01 Dec 18 6.54pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC How convenient. A good set of fact driven counter arguments to one the most combatiative, never shy to comment orafices on here and he swerves for... Dinner. Also if someone with a clear anti establishment leave narrative can lay out to me the Short term Medium term Long term ...Ways this will be of benefit to the ‘working to lower middle class’, that would be great. Because it’s pretty clear to me in both leave and remain scenarios you lose. Which makes the ‘victory for the common man’ belief even more amusing. The elites and the establishment always win. And they certainly don’t react well to losing, even if it is a tiny, almost imperceptible pin prick (no pun intended). If I were you I’d be more worried about automation and how much universal credit you’re going to be getting. For Goodness sake don't encourage him He'll be back after he's had his pierogi and goulash. Clearly you don't know Stirling well, he must always have the last post. Bit of a bugler you might say.
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Mapletree

Croydon 01 Dec 18 6.54pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

How convenient.

A good set of fact driven counter arguments to one the most combatiative, never shy to comment orafices on here and he swerves for...

Dinner.

Also if someone with a clear anti establishment leave narrative can lay out to me the

Short term
Medium term
Long term

The elites and the establishment always win. And they certainly don’t react well to losing, even if it is a tiny, almost imperceptible pin prick (no pun intended).

If I were you I’d be more worried about automation and how much universal credit you’re going to be getting.

For Goodness sake don't encourage him

He'll be back after he's had his pierogi and goulash.

Clearly you don't know Stirling well, he must always have the last post. Bit of a bugler you might say.

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Pussay Patrol 01 Dec 18 8.50pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC How convenient. Also if someone with a clear anti establishment leave narrative can lay out to me the Short term Medium term Long term (no pun intended). well it's the question i've asked so many times, so many Brexiters with so many opinions yet no one can give any positive benefits Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah
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Pussay Patrol

01 Dec 18 8.50pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

How convenient.

Also if someone with a clear anti establishment leave narrative can lay out to me the

Short term
Medium term
Long term

(no pun intended).

well it's the question i've asked so many times, so many Brexiters with so many opinions yet no one can give any positive benefits

Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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Stirlingsays 01 Dec 18 9.07pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC How convenient. A good set of fact driven counter arguments to one the most combatiative, never shy to comment orafices on here and he swerves for... Dinner. Also if someone with a clear anti establishment leave narrative can lay out to me the Short term Medium term Long term ...Ways this will be of benefit to the ‘working to lower middle class’, that would be great. Because it’s pretty clear to me in both leave and remain scenarios you lose. Which makes the ‘victory for the common man’ belief even more amusing. The elites and the establishment always win. And they certainly don’t react well to losing, even if it is a tiny, almost imperceptible pin prick (no pun intended). If I were you I’d be more worried about automation and how much universal credit you’re going to be getting. Yep, you clearly don't know me very well if you think I wasn't being honest about dinner. I might see things differently politically with Maple but that's all it is.....We are all pretty regular posters and if someone felt they were missing a response most of us would fill in the blanks. You raise some interesting points and I'll type something up tomorrow. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Dec 18 9.07pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

How convenient.

A good set of fact driven counter arguments to one the most combatiative, never shy to comment orafices on here and he swerves for...

Dinner.

Also if someone with a clear anti establishment leave narrative can lay out to me the

Short term
Medium term
Long term

The elites and the establishment always win. And they certainly don’t react well to losing, even if it is a tiny, almost imperceptible pin prick (no pun intended).

If I were you I’d be more worried about automation and how much universal credit you’re going to be getting.

Yep, you clearly don't know me very well if you think I wasn't being honest about dinner.

I might see things differently politically with Maple but that's all it is.....We are all pretty regular posters and if someone felt they were missing a response most of us would fill in the blanks.

You raise some interesting points and I'll type something up tomorrow.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 01 Dec 18 9.17pm
Originally posted by Mapletree The effect on the significant part of the working population that wishes to be able to work in the EU is just one bad aspect of Brexit. This discussion started specifically about being able to work abroad. We can discuss many other down-sides Fair enough. Originally posted by Mapletree Becky is right, many expats will be retired. I therefore suggest that maybe 10% of the UK population is working abroad. But the figures don't include the huge number of people like me that visit other countries each week for work. Yep, I'm not going to deny that Brexit is going to result in more hassle for you. Originally posted by Mapletree If the argument is that immigration is worse for the UK than our earnings through expatriation are good for it, I would take you to task on that. We have always used migrant workers in certain industries such as agriculture. In any case the 'precariat' is estimated at 15% of the workforce. So the people affected by compression on wages due to low cost migrant workers is probably no more significant than the people going in the other direction. In any case, when you close the door to the one third of immigrants that are from the EU, it is inevitable others will come from non-EU countries. In the end, regardless of what we want the economics will have its affect. And, frankly, we are all doomed. Edited by Mapletree (01 Dec 2018 5.47pm) I think these are the central points......Brexit was never really about economics. Leave voters mainly voted on immigration and sovereignty. It may very well be that we end up doing well out of Brexit significantly down the line....but I see that as a 60/40 against. The variables are just so unknown that it's impossible to be certain about that. Short term however we are likely to undergo economic turbulence. The point about immigration is purely political. Many people voted against EU immigration because it was their only opportunity to do so.....they had no clear opportunity to vote purely on an immigration issue before and hence we had a majority against. It's certainly true that EU immigration is better economically for the country than non EU immigration...it isn't even close. However, there are still significant downsides to that immigration....I've stated many times on here how eastern EU immigration into the small town I live in has significantly altered the nature and living spaces of the town. It no longer 'feels' English......and for me that is far more important than any economic benefit. I have a right to those views and to vote based on that. However, is EU immigration preferable to non EU immigration....well every individual is individual but looking over the average....I won't deny...it isn't even close. If the government of whatever type looks to increase non EU immigration to cover a reduction in numbers then I think they will lose political support for that.....Both Tory and Labour but especially Tory. However, when it comes to voices like yourself I feel more reasonable about topics like revotes down the line......It's only the zealots who get the 'wait 40 years' like our pro EU leaders made EU leavers wait.....But I think it's clear that 'freedom of movement' isn't accepted by the majority....it's not even very popular amongst some remainers. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2018 9.31pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Dec 18 9.17pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Mapletree

Yep, I'm not going to deny that Brexit is going to result in more hassle for you.

Originally posted by Mapletree

In any case, when you close the door to the one third of immigrants that are from the EU, it is inevitable others will come from non-EU countries.

In the end, regardless of what we want the economics will have its affect. And, frankly, we are all doomed.

Edited by Mapletree (01 Dec 2018 5.47pm)

I think these are the central points......Brexit was never really about economics. Leave voters mainly voted on immigration and sovereignty. It may very well be that we end up doing well out of Brexit significantly down the line....but I see that as a 60/40 against. The variables are just so unknown that it's impossible to be certain about that. Short term however we are likely to undergo economic turbulence.

The point about immigration is purely political. Many people voted against EU immigration because it was their only opportunity to do so.....they had no clear opportunity to vote purely on an immigration issue before and hence we had a majority against.

It's certainly true that EU immigration is better economically for the country than non EU immigration...it isn't even close. However, there are still significant downsides to that immigration....I've stated many times on here how eastern EU immigration into the small town I live in has significantly altered the nature and living spaces of the town. It no longer 'feels' English......and for me that is far more important than any economic benefit. I have a right to those views and to vote based on that.

However, is EU immigration preferable to non EU immigration....well every individual is individual but looking over the average....I won't deny...it isn't even close.

If the government of whatever type looks to increase non EU immigration to cover a reduction in numbers then I think they will lose political support for that.....Both Tory and Labour but especially Tory.

However, when it comes to voices like yourself I feel more reasonable about topics like revotes down the line......It's only the zealots who get the 'wait 40 years' like our pro EU leaders made EU leavers wait.....But I think it's clear that 'freedom of movement' isn't accepted by the majority....it's not even very popular amongst some remainers.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2018 9.31pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Pussay Patrol 01 Dec 18 9.54pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I think these are the central points......Brexit was never really about economics. Leave voters mainly voted on immigration and sovereignty. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2018 9.31pm) But no one votes to be poorer Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah
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Pussay Patrol

01 Dec 18 9.54pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think these are the central points......Brexit was never really about economics. Leave voters mainly voted on immigration and sovereignty.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2018 9.31pm)

But no one votes to be poorer

Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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Stirlingsays 01 Dec 18 10.01pm
Originally posted by Pussay Patrol But no one votes to be poorer You are just wrong. I know you find these things hard to believe but parliaments have voted for wars....which make countries poorer....giant welfare reforms....which also make them poorer....and many other situations. In many situations the public has been in majority support for them as well......When I was a teenager I can remember Thatcher getting her second term on the back of the Falklands war......a very costly exercise financially. You have been told multiple times on this thread that people voted in the knowledge that we would take an economic hit. You just ignore replies and repeat statements that have been answered many times. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2018 10.02pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

01 Dec 18 10.01pm

Originally posted by Pussay Patrol

But no one votes to be poorer

You are just wrong.

I know you find these things hard to believe but parliaments have voted for wars....which make countries poorer....giant welfare reforms....which also make them poorer....and many other situations.

In many situations the public has been in majority support for them as well......When I was a teenager I can remember Thatcher getting her second term on the back of the Falklands war......a very costly exercise financially.

You have been told multiple times on this thread that people voted in the knowledge that we would take an economic hit.

You just ignore replies and repeat statements that have been answered many times.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Dec 2018 10.02pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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silvertop Portishead 01 Dec 18 10.14pm
Originally posted by Cucking Funt What I can't get behind is why Remainers think this vote should be any more valid/binding than the first one. Remainers don't all live in the same street you know. As a remainer I hate the vote but don't think it should be challenged in the absence of proven illegality or impropriety. That's not to say I agree with anything else you say.
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silvertop

Portishead 01 Dec 18 10.14pm

Originally posted by Cucking Funt

What I can't get behind is why Remainers think this vote should be any more valid/binding than the first one.

Remainers don't all live in the same street you know. As a remainer I hate the vote but don't think it should be challenged in the absence of proven illegality or impropriety.

That's not to say I agree with anything else you say.

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