A 2nd referendum will irreparably damage democracy.

I also believe that brexit will irreparably damage our economy and our society.

So I have no solution to this mess beyond examining its cause and punishing those responsible for it.

Successive tory leaders have failed to find consensus within their party on EU membership. It has festered unchecked for decades.

The tories failed to build a coherent case for the benefits of membership to "sell" to the electorate. And at the same time tory leavers failed to build a coherent case for leaving.

Along comes the conman Farage with a single issue party and he starts stripping votes from the tories. Unfortunately Farage had zero chance of returning any MPs to Westminster. Had UKIP had any representation in parliament then we might have seen some proper debate on the issue.

And the tories reacted to the votes lost to Farage not by countering his arguments with their own ideas but by offering the electorate a chance to decide for themselves. They weren't acting in the country's interest but in their own.

The electorate had been battered by 10 years of austerity and were so pissed off they first returned yet another tory govt and then gave them the big finger in the referendum.

Of course it's possible to leave the EU. But it takes careful planning and there was no planning. Before calling the referendum the govt should have identified the threats. The GFA would then have been correctly identified as a threat to the UK leaving because Dublin has a veto. FFS someone could have called them and said "hey guys we're considering holding a referendum, what's your position on us leaving?"

There is no democratic solution to this mess. There won't be any consensus. One side has to lose. But the biggest loser is democracy which has failed us all.

If our broken democracy becomes the issue that unites both sides of the brexit debacle then we might begin to claw our way back out.

Otherwise we're doomed to following another 1,000 pages on this thread over the next two years.

Edited by steve1984 (01 Dec 2018 8.57am)

Well said Stirling

I believe I may have done so in the past and probably also commented that Slovakian girls are the most attractive I have seen anywhere

It just seems bizarre that someone who appears to love another EU country would feel so strongly that it should be made a huge amount harder for others to have the same experience

We know and understand our European neighbours at a totally different level know than when I was young. IMO it is our natural role to act as referee between them and their bridgehead with the USA.

Good post Steve there is a lot I agree with.

One thing the Remainers do not understand is that they held all the cards. This was not an unbiased referendum the government was pro EU as was the whole establishment, unions, international bodies etc. Yet with all that firepower they failed to convince enough people of the merits of staying. Remainers blame us Leavers rather than asking the obvious question why did we fail to persuade the electorate?

One more point

Yup I heard him squirm on that question as have other politicians. They will not say it but basically we should ignore the first referendum vote again and "respect" the result of the 2nd referendum just as long as they win.

And if they lose stand by for a list of excuses and claims for a re-run.

One more point

sure they're incompetent

But I should add that with May's deal then both sides will lose. Let that be the starting point for some fragile but much needed consensus.