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Margaret Thatcher
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 johnno42000  17 Apr 13 12.36pm |
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Quote chris123 at 17 Apr 2013 12.36pm
Quote johnno42000 at 17 Apr 2013 12.27pm
So glad the witch is dead.
So was she.
'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more' |
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jamiemartin721  Reading 17 Apr 13 12.37pm |
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Quote chris123 at 17 Apr 2013 12.27pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 12.20pm
Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 12.09pm
its not missing the point if the previous 4 generations did work, whether it was in a steel works/shipyard or a pit, those examples of benefit claimants spread over 3/4 generations of families are massively widespread over the sink estates and mining communities from Wales upwards, they are not just isolated examples, I'm not talking about Jeremy Kyle style wasters with multitudes of illegitimate children, just normal working class families who lost all hope.
As for families that haven't worked for four generations. What the previous generations did doesn't reflect upon the next four. That's a bit of a leap on several factors. You neglect the fact or ignore that the welfare state didn't exist in the same generous fashion that many generations ago.....No disability benefit...Which if I'm not mistaken Major brought in. Also, you can't expect industries not to reflect the reality of globalisation and the fact that these jobs were uneconomic. Countries with far smaller Labour costs could do them cheaper....What exactly are you asking a government to do? Ignore reality? Also, no one has a 'right' to a job. You have to go out and get it. If the local area doesn't supply the work you can't tell me that it's valid for four generations of a family to sit on benefits and blame someone else. You can get educated you can train....Four sodding generations is a joke.
Which will tell you a lot about how f**king grim mining was and how badly needed union representation was. Could you imagine City Finance workers going off to do low waged equivilant in South America?
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| chris123 hove actually 17 Apr 13 12.40pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Apr 2013 12.37pm
Quote chris123 at 17 Apr 2013 12.27pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 12.20pm
Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 12.09pm
its not missing the point if the previous 4 generations did work, whether it was in a steel works/shipyard or a pit, those examples of benefit claimants spread over 3/4 generations of families are massively widespread over the sink estates and mining communities from Wales upwards, they are not just isolated examples, I'm not talking about Jeremy Kyle style wasters with multitudes of illegitimate children, just normal working class families who lost all hope.
As for families that haven't worked for four generations. What the previous generations did doesn't reflect upon the next four. That's a bit of a leap on several factors. You neglect the fact or ignore that the welfare state didn't exist in the same generous fashion that many generations ago.....No disability benefit...Which if I'm not mistaken Major brought in. Also, you can't expect industries not to reflect the reality of globalisation and the fact that these jobs were uneconomic. Countries with far smaller Labour costs could do them cheaper....What exactly are you asking a government to do? Ignore reality? Also, no one has a 'right' to a job. You have to go out and get it. If the local area doesn't supply the work you can't tell me that it's valid for four generations of a family to sit on benefits and blame someone else. You can get educated you can train....Four sodding generations is a joke.
Which will tell you a lot about how f**king grim mining was and how badly needed union representation was. Could you imagine City Finance workers going off to do low waged equivilant in South America? I don't believe it was low waged.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Apr 13 12.41pm |
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Quote chris123 at 17 Apr 2013 12.36pm
Quote johnno42000 at 17 Apr 2013 12.27pm
So glad the witch is dead.
It shows just how much she was dispised (as well as adored) by significant amounts of the public, that 23(isn't it) years, after losing the leadership battle she is still dispised across the country. I can't imagine that people were willing to risk prison or arrest to protest at churchills funeral for events in his distant past. Dispised so much that even her party could stand having her as their leader.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 Apr 13 12.41pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 11.53am
Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 11.27am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 11.22am
Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 11.18am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 11.09am
As has been stated many times before when this nonsense about cost is brought up. Thatcher....Being one of the few sceptical Tories in her cabinet at the time was pivotal in securing the EU rebate for this country. As Hague mentioned last week that has brought in 75 billion for this country....The 'left' of course have given a significant proportion of it away. She certainly deserves this ceremonial funeral.
How so? If a person's actions result in significant financial benefit how is that not a justification? You can't moan at the cost and then not recognise financial actions that have reduced cost for the economy. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Apr 2013 11.22am)
decimated industrial communities of the North of England never saw a shilling of this rebate, a welfare state bill that is probably close to hundreds of billions over the years, third and fourth generations of families on benefits and never will have employment in their lifetimes , blah blah blah.
You said the cost was wrong, I stated the fact that she had improved the country's finances, which she had from where they were when she took over. While I have some sympathy with what you are saying about the North the effect her policies had on different areas of the country is a separate point. Mind you I will make one point. Any family that contains three or four generations of people who haven't worked are ridiculous. Blaming Thatcher for fecklessness is just wrong.....Four sodding generations and it's her fault? That's taking the biscuit. In terms of the nation's finances she has paid for this funeral many millions of times over...Just with the rebate. If you find me evidence of ten families who have 3 or 4 generations unemployed I will vote UKIP. It's a complete fallacy!
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Apr 13 12.44pm |
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Quote chris123 at 17 Apr 2013 12.40pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Apr 2013 12.37pm
Quote chris123 at 17 Apr 2013 12.27pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 12.20pm
Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 12.09pm
its not missing the point if the previous 4 generations did work, whether it was in a steel works/shipyard or a pit, those examples of benefit claimants spread over 3/4 generations of families are massively widespread over the sink estates and mining communities from Wales upwards, they are not just isolated examples, I'm not talking about Jeremy Kyle style wasters with multitudes of illegitimate children, just normal working class families who lost all hope.
As for families that haven't worked for four generations. What the previous generations did doesn't reflect upon the next four. That's a bit of a leap on several factors. You neglect the fact or ignore that the welfare state didn't exist in the same generous fashion that many generations ago.....No disability benefit...Which if I'm not mistaken Major brought in. Also, you can't expect industries not to reflect the reality of globalisation and the fact that these jobs were uneconomic. Countries with far smaller Labour costs could do them cheaper....What exactly are you asking a government to do? Ignore reality? Also, no one has a 'right' to a job. You have to go out and get it. If the local area doesn't supply the work you can't tell me that it's valid for four generations of a family to sit on benefits and blame someone else. You can get educated you can train....Four sodding generations is a joke.
Which will tell you a lot about how f**king grim mining was and how badly needed union representation was. Could you imagine City Finance workers going off to do low waged equivilant in South America? I don't believe it was low waged. Mining was low waged in the UK during the 19th centuary. The history of mining is of low wages and dangerous work, despite being the entire backbone of industry in the UK throughout the industrial era.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Stirlingsays 17 Apr 13 12.45pm |
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Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 12.27pm
these industries needed reforming that cant be denied , but a personnel feud with Scargill and the unions resulted in men in their early 40's never working again, we still imported coal dug by children and coal has been seen as an excellent more environmentally friendly viable alternative to the insane utility coasts that our privatised foreign companies now feel free to charge, I was reading a report that when unemployment reached 2 million there is not any more then a quarter of a million jobs at ant time in the UK, makes it virtually impossible to find suitable employment.
In terms of privatisations I'm neutral....I don't know enough about the balance of benefits to costs....Energy bills are certainly a problem for a significant proportion of the country...I suspect that some privatisations were better than others....Though I do regard the rail one as poor...But Major did that and reportedly Thatcher didn't support it. I agree with you about older people in those industries being left to sit on benefits with an unlikely chance of getting a job.....I'm one of those Tories who think she was wrong not to reinvest more on Heseltine's plan for northern regeneration. Still, she was right to close down the pits, just as Wilson was.....Those older men were going to lose their jobs regardless. Those that could moved to where the work was, those that couldn't or wouldn't didn't....I'm not sure how much Thatcher can be blamed for that,. No one has a god given right to a job and good living....It's always been a battle and we are one of the richest country's in the world.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 17 Apr 13 12.47pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 Apr 2013 12.41pm
If you find me evidence of ten families who have 3 or 4 generations unemployed I will vote UKIP. It's a complete fallacy!
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Bin Liner London , Southfields 17 Apr 13 12.49pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 12.45pm
Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 12.27pm
these industries needed reforming that cant be denied , but a personnel feud with Scargill and the unions resulted in men in their early 40's never working again, we still imported coal dug by children and coal has been seen as an excellent more environmentally friendly viable alternative to the insane utility coasts that our privatised foreign companies now feel free to charge, I was reading a report that when unemployment reached 2 million there is not any more then a quarter of a million jobs at ant time in the UK, makes it virtually impossible to find suitable employment.
In terms of privatisations I'm neutral....I don't know enough about the balance of benefits to costs....Energy bills are certainly a problem for a significant proportion of the country...I suspect that some privatisations were better than others....Though I do regard the rail one as poor...But Major did that and reportedly Thatcher didn't support it. I agree with you about older people in those industries being left to sit on benefits with an unlikely chance of getting a job.....I'm one of those Tories who think she was wrong not to reinvest more on Heseltine's plan for northern regeneration. Still, she was right to close down the pits, just as Wilson was.....Those older men were going to lose their jobs regardless. Those that could moved to where the work was, those that couldn't or wouldn't didn't....I'm not sure how much Thatcher can be blamed for that,. No one has a god given right to a job and good living....It's always been a battle and we are one of the richest country's in the world.
Portillo's teeth removed to boost pound Boy roasts himself in sacrifice to Chris Kelly |
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Johnny Eagles  berlin 17 Apr 13 12.52pm |
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Diane Abbott on Radio 4 giving it, "not a penny of public money should be spent on this funeral." Shut up and do one, Abbott.
...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread... |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Apr 13 12.55pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 Apr 2013 12.41pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 11.53am
Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 11.27am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 11.22am
Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 11.18am
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 11.09am
As has been stated many times before when this nonsense about cost is brought up. Thatcher....Being one of the few sceptical Tories in her cabinet at the time was pivotal in securing the EU rebate for this country. As Hague mentioned last week that has brought in 75 billion for this country....The 'left' of course have given a significant proportion of it away. She certainly deserves this ceremonial funeral.
How so? If a person's actions result in significant financial benefit how is that not a justification? You can't moan at the cost and then not recognise financial actions that have reduced cost for the economy. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Apr 2013 11.22am)
decimated industrial communities of the North of England never saw a shilling of this rebate, a welfare state bill that is probably close to hundreds of billions over the years, third and fourth generations of families on benefits and never will have employment in their lifetimes , blah blah blah.
You said the cost was wrong, I stated the fact that she had improved the country's finances, which she had from where they were when she took over. While I have some sympathy with what you are saying about the North the effect her policies had on different areas of the country is a separate point. Mind you I will make one point. Any family that contains three or four generations of people who haven't worked are ridiculous. Blaming Thatcher for fecklessness is just wrong.....Four sodding generations and it's her fault? That's taking the biscuit. In terms of the nation's finances she has paid for this funeral many millions of times over...Just with the rebate. If you find me evidence of ten families who have 3 or 4 generations unemployed I will vote UKIP. It's a complete fallacy! And provisonally backed by initial findings into a study of generational unemployment. That said, Thatcher oversaw the disolution of the industrial age, and the initial growth of consumerism in the UK. I wouldn't blame her entirely, that would be unfair, but the restructuring of social values began with her administration. With the death of industry, large scale unemployment occured in the areas dependent on industry employment and the damage to the unions, as well as the nature of post-industrial consumer society values, resulted in a big shift in what constituted identity and self worth. If you look at the 50s through to the end of the 80s, people self identitifed along distinct class lines, and defined themselves by what they did. Now social division and identity is along lines of income (most notably disposable income) and how you consume. Fame is more important than achievement, hard work is considered a fools errand, pride in what you do is secondary to how much it costs, personal situation trumps group benefit, and the self is the 'primary source of morality'. Having money is the new morality. I think its no suprise that the decrease in the influence of Unions, led in part, to the decline of 'workers pride'. Its all about the money now.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| chris123 hove actually 17 Apr 13 12.56pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Apr 2013 12.44pm
Quote chris123 at 17 Apr 2013 12.40pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Apr 2013 12.37pm
Quote chris123 at 17 Apr 2013 12.27pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Apr 2013 12.20pm
Quote Bin Liner at 17 Apr 2013 12.09pm
its not missing the point if the previous 4 generations did work, whether it was in a steel works/shipyard or a pit, those examples of benefit claimants spread over 3/4 generations of families are massively widespread over the sink estates and mining communities from Wales upwards, they are not just isolated examples, I'm not talking about Jeremy Kyle style wasters with multitudes of illegitimate children, just normal working class families who lost all hope.
As for families that haven't worked for four generations. What the previous generations did doesn't reflect upon the next four. That's a bit of a leap on several factors. You neglect the fact or ignore that the welfare state didn't exist in the same generous fashion that many generations ago.....No disability benefit...Which if I'm not mistaken Major brought in. Also, you can't expect industries not to reflect the reality of globalisation and the fact that these jobs were uneconomic. Countries with far smaller Labour costs could do them cheaper....What exactly are you asking a government to do? Ignore reality? Also, no one has a 'right' to a job. You have to go out and get it. If the local area doesn't supply the work you can't tell me that it's valid for four generations of a family to sit on benefits and blame someone else. You can get educated you can train....Four sodding generations is a joke.
Which will tell you a lot about how f**king grim mining was and how badly needed union representation was. Could you imagine City Finance workers going off to do low waged equivilant in South America? I don't believe it was low waged. Mining was low waged in the UK during the 19th centuary. The history of mining is of low wages and dangerous work, despite being the entire backbone of industry in the UK throughout the industrial era.
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