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Moving statues

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards georgenorman Flag 14 Jul 21 11.16am Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It seems that the cherry-picking isn't restricted to the picking of witnesses, is it? I also read the summary to the McCracken book on this subject, which by the way confirms my original point that these things are healthy as they stimulate debate and evaluation.

Yes, 19 of the 62 witnesses were African, but none were actually involved in the uprising. They were all either dead (30 being executed) or in prison. I quote "Some of those were relatively elite Africans– ministers in the Church of Scotland, interpreters for the government, some chiefs, and people who worked on the Magomero estate". That's cherry-picking!

It also says, "The whole thing was over in a matter of days. Very few people were killed on the colonial side" and "some individuals – such as Alexander Hetherwick, the leader of the Blantyre Mission – were very dismissive, regarding it as a small-scale affair whose significance was grossly exaggerated by the colonial authorities".

There's more, but that's enough. The guy who led the enquiry was also the guy who sentenced the 30 participants to death.

The context seems to have been to exploit a relatively minor incident in order to boost the defence forces.

I have never suggested there wasn't an incident, that's obvious, but that to interpret it needs much more than a reliance on ancient accounts from one side. There is no evidence at all that Chilembwe was a murderer, which is the central accusation that you and others have made. He led a small uprising in which a few people lost their lives, but 30 were executed as a consequence. Did he himself kill? Did he order others to kill? How did the people die? It's just not known, so no judgement can be made.

Difficult to see how the Commission could call dead people as witnesses – by seance perhaps?
You seem to think that someone’s status in a community should restrict them in being a witness – why on earth should that be.
Having previously dismissed the inquiry as an Empire stitch-up you proceed to cherry-pick bits from their proceedings to try to prop up your shambles of a position.
I have not called Chilembwe a murderer, I have called him what he was – an incitor of murder – along with being a racist and terrorist of course.
The fact that Chilembwe called for the beheading of Livingstone and that it was carried out in front of his wife and small children and that his severed head was on display on a pole during a religious service conducted by the evil man, is clear to all apart from those whose political agenda drive them to trivialise the appalling actions of the man while those of a similar disposition proceed to raise a statue in his honour. It’s disgusting.


Edited by georgenorman (14 Jul 2021 11.20am)

 

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Lanzo-Ad Flag Lanzarote 14 Jul 21 11.38am Send a Private Message to Lanzo-Ad Add Lanzo-Ad as a friend

I thought it was about Benteke

 


“That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Jul 21 11.57am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

TBF WE has said it was not appropriate to have the statue in the UK

OK.
He has spent a lot of time pontificating over something that he dissaproves of.
Maybe he can just clear it up for us with one simple sentence.

 

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ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 14 Jul 21 12.02pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

I suggest the sculptor seriously reinforce the neck of this particular statue.

 


Red and Blue Army!

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ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 14 Jul 21 12.04pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You don't need me to tell you what bs is! You are an expert.

Putting up a statue to someone who has no direct connection to us, when there are many other candidates whose contributions to our country have established merit, seems strange.

If he deserves to be recognised, and I pass no comment on that, then it would be appropriate in his home country

He's on stamps, notes and coinage. Presumably has a statue unless someone pulled it down.

 


Red and Blue Army!

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 14 Jul 21 12.44pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by georgenorman

Difficult to see how the Commission could call dead people as witnesses – by seance perhaps?
You seem to think that someone’s status in a community should restrict them in being a witness – why on earth should that be.
Having previously dismissed the inquiry as an Empire stitch-up you proceed to cherry-pick bits from their proceedings to try to prop up your shambles of a position.
I have not called Chilembwe a murderer, I have called him what he was – an incitor of murder – along with being a racist and terrorist of course.
The fact that Chilembwe called for the beheading of Livingstone and that it was carried out in front of his wife and small children and that his severed head was on display on a pole during a religious service conducted by the evil man, is clear to all apart from those whose political agenda drive them to trivialise the appalling actions of the man while those of a similar disposition proceed to raise a statue in his honour. It’s disgusting.


Edited by georgenorman (14 Jul 2021 11.20am)

They weren't all executed, were they, but none were called. If you pass the death sentence on 30 people and then investigate the incident, it rather indicates you have already made up your mind and your purpose has more to do with how to avoid a reoccurrence than investigating grievances.

Hearing sycophantic Uncle Toms is no substitute for hearing genuine witnesses to motivation and background.

There is no more evidence that Chilembwe incited murder than that he committed it. Nor that he was racist. He led an uprising of the oppressed against their oppressors. Whether being of another ethnicity was involved isn't clear. Nor is there any evidence that he called for a beheading. Or that the head was carried out in front of the wife and children. You are making assumptions, some based on untrustworthy reporting.

Whether he was a terrorist will depend on your viewpoint, but if the reports are accurate, he was a great deal more than that.

I am not trivialising such actions in any way. If true, they would be extremely unpleasant, albeit not really uncommon during such incidents. What I am challenging is the assumption that they must be true because someone, a long time ago when very different standards of objectivity applied, reported them as happening.

To do that is no better than mob justice.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with whether raising a statue is appropriate, and to try to introduce that into the argument is ridiculous. This is a side issue to the original thread.

 


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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 14 Jul 21 12.46pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

OK.
He has spent a lot of time pontificating over something that he dissaproves of.
Maybe he can just clear it up for us with one simple sentence.

What do you think I disapprove of?

 


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Jul 21 12.49pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

What do you think I disapprove of?

Just tell us if you approve or disapprove of a clearly anti British symbol being erected in London.

This should be a simple one for you.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards georgenorman Flag 14 Jul 21 1.38pm Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

They weren't all executed, were they, but none were called. If you pass the death sentence on 30 people and then investigate the incident, it rather indicates you have already made up your mind and your purpose has more to do with how to avoid a reoccurrence than investigating grievances.

Hearing sycophantic Uncle Toms is no substitute for hearing genuine witnesses to motivation and background.

There is no more evidence that Chilembwe incited murder than that he committed it. Nor that he was racist. He led an uprising of the oppressed against their oppressors. Whether being of another ethnicity was involved isn't clear. Nor is there any evidence that he called for a beheading. Or that the head was carried out in front of the wife and children. You are making assumptions, some based on untrustworthy reporting.

Whether he was a terrorist will depend on your viewpoint, but if the reports are accurate, he was a great deal more than that.

I am not trivialising such actions in any way. If true, they would be extremely unpleasant, albeit not really uncommon during such incidents. What I am challenging is the assumption that they must be true because someone, a long time ago when very different standards of objectivity applied, reported them as happening.

To do that is no better than mob justice.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with whether raising a statue is appropriate, and to try to introduce that into the argument is ridiculous. This is a side issue to the original thread.

On the one hand you dismiss evidence from people that you consider ‘Uncle Toms’ and those that you think are part of some elite or other. On the other hand you would be happy to accept evidence from those who engaged in the atrocities – as if they were likely to say “It’s a fair cop govnr’ I chopped ‘is ‘ead off”. In any case most of the insurgents were killed in gun-fights when troops and police were used to put down the uprising – Chilembwe when trying to flee the country.
Chilembwe clearly incited racially aggravated murder with his orders to his men to kill European men. He specifically ordered that Livingstone be beheaded and his head brought to him. Mrs Livingstone was understandably traumatised by being forced with her children to watch her husband being beheaded by an axe – you of course will dismiss her as a liar.
Clearly he was a terrorist whether or not he was acting for the ‘oppressed’. Is such barbarity justified because you are living under a regime that you disapprove of? I expect many Africans would look back to colonial days as a golden age compared to most of the regimes they are oppressed by now.

 

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Teddy Eagle Flag 14 Jul 21 8.24pm Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend


So even though this statue is being raised no one thinks it’s a good idea.
Some tourists might notice it. Big deal.

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 14 Jul 21 8.27pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle


So even though this statue is being raised no one thinks it’s a good idea.
Some tourists might notice it. Big deal.

It's about power.

Who has it and how the future will be different.

Previous generations are to blame for actually believing in that 'hippy' sh1t.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 14 Jul 21 9.57pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Just tell us if you approve or disapprove of a clearly anti British symbol being erected in London.

This should be a simple one for you.

It is, and I gave a very clear answer pages ago, although I made no reference to the "anti-British" assertion. Was he really "anti-British" or simply protecting his people?

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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