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johnfirewall 26 Apr 16 10.51am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
How many people choose not to work though, and how many cannot afford to work. Benefits have traditionally risen in line with inflation and the cost of living, where as wages are fulfilled through supply and demand. As there has been a glut of fulfilment of jobs filled first from students and part time work (low wage demands) and then from cheap migrant labour, we have a situation where the governments since introduction of the minimum wage have continually failed to increase it due to pressure from the corporate sector, whilst cheap abundant labour sources have meant that the supply / demand factor has meant wages have been surpassed by benefits (or notably people on benefits, who work part time within the law are actually better off than people working full time (especially if they have dependents). You couldn't afford to rent a single bedroom flat around Reading if you were on minimum wage. Let alone pay the assorted bills, utilities etc. The solution of reducing benefits won't actually make much difference, people respond to positive economic incentives in a capitalist market. We need to end EU exploitation of its poorer nations and establish a minimum wage that makes working not just a means of subsistence, but a means of self improvement and escaping from subsistence and poverty. Or we need to control the costs of living - Most notably the cost of renting (which are absurdly disproportionate in comparison to wages). Surely the fact that the government gives you cash to give to a landlord just inflates rents by ensuring everyone can afford a bedsit by default, with the workers then immediately filling the slightly better accomodation of studios and flat shares etc. You've immediately outstripped the supply. Yes the minimum wage is at its lowest in relation to costs, but when rent is everyone's largest outgoing it's never going be anywhere near enough. The more you pay the more viable it will be to come and work here from abroad if you're happy to share a room.
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fed up eagle Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 26 Apr 16 11.04am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
How many people choose not to work though, and how many cannot afford to work. Benefits have traditionally risen in line with inflation and the cost of living, where as wages are fulfilled through supply and demand. As there has been a glut of fulfilment of jobs filled first from students and part time work (low wage demands) and then from cheap migrant labour, we have a situation where the governments since introduction of the minimum wage have continually failed to increase it due to pressure from the corporate sector, whilst cheap abundant labour sources have meant that the supply / demand factor has meant wages have been surpassed by benefits (or notably people on benefits, who work part time within the law are actually better off than people working full time (especially if they have dependents). You couldn't afford to rent a single bedroom flat around Reading if you were on minimum wage. Let alone pay the assorted bills, utilities etc. The solution of reducing benefits won't actually make much difference, people respond to positive economic incentives in a capitalist market. We need to end EU exploitation of its poorer nations and establish a minimum wage that makes working not just a means of subsistence, but a means of self improvement and escaping from subsistence and poverty. Or we need to control the costs of living - Most notably the cost of renting (which are absurdly disproportionate in comparison to wages). That's not the point though is it. There's way too many people who choose not to work and that shouldn't even be an option. If your able bodied and mentally capable you should be working. But there's no jobs I hear you cry! There are plenty of jobs, it's just people aren't willing to, for example clean offices or empty bins. The world does not owe these people a living.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Apr 16 11.31am | |
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Originally posted by johnfirewall
Surely the fact that the government gives you cash to give to a landlord just inflates rents by ensuring everyone can afford a bedsit by default, with the workers then immediately filling the slightly better accomodation of studios and flat shares etc. You've immediately outstripped the supply. This is definitely a problem, especially given that the state has no real housing stock with which to offer a control factor to the private market. Realistically, the situation is such that the provision of housing benefit actually creates a greater problem for people who work (high housing costs due to a secondary market driven by landlords and people renting out second properties as an investment). The problem here is that no government wants to actually implement real regulation on the rental market such as forcing councils to levy rental charge caps. And they have been remiss in pursuing landlords over taxation from properties and capital gains where people have rented properties out to pay mortgages or provide income, and then later sold what is arguably a business asset. This has slowly changed over the last decade, but its too little too late, as the revenue generated by capturing any rented property income (with corporate tax charges) and the sale of such investments (via capital gains) should have been used to feed back into the high costs of housing benefit. Like any market it required real control and regulation, especially once the housing boom began and council properties were mostly sold off (these served as a competition to private rental markets). Originally posted by johnfirewall
Yes the minimum wage is at its lowest in relation to costs, but when rent is everyone's largest outgoing it's never going be anywhere near enough. The more you pay the more viable it will be to come and work here from abroad if you're happy to share a room. That's why we need to break away from employment of overseas workers or EU migrant workers, or to fix the capacity of the working classes to actually do those jobs. By fixing a reasonable minimum wage, it makes it viable to take such jobs, and for the UK to begin migrating people within the UK to fill jobs (in a similar way to how we migrate people from Poland to do such jobs) because they can move their families etc with them (from low employment areas) or it becomes viable for them to work. We need to end the Freedom of Movement from the EU and tighten up restrictions on other working migration so that it is restricted to where the employment cannot be first obtained within the UK (if necessary the government should subidise moving people geographically to fulfil jobs and training). The attraction of migrant labour is that its cheap. I don't have an issue with someone who, say is a Nurse, coming to the UK to work, if there is no availability to Nurses in the UK to fill that role. If necessary we need to leave the EU and control working migration so that it supplements the long term interests of the UK and UK residents, even if that means spending more revenue and cutting profits. If there are vacancies we need to identify how to fill them from our own resources. Even if that costs us in the shorter term.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Apr 16 11.42am | |
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Originally posted by fed up eagle
That's not the point though is it. There's way too many people who choose not to work and that shouldn't even be an option. If your able bodied and mentally capable you should be working. But there's no jobs I hear you cry! There are plenty of jobs, it's just people aren't willing to, for example clean offices or empty bins. The world does not owe these people a living. That's a moral issue, though. I agree to an extent, as I've never really been unemployed. But the reality is that many of those jobs pay s**t wages. Certainly if your single, living at home and not in education there is no excuse not to work. But I very much doubt anyone could actually work minimum or low wage jobs in the SE and raise a family, and would be struggling if both parents worked. So why bother working if there is no actual benefit from working (for many working would reduce their standard of living, and for most of the unemployed that isn't exactly great to start with). If you live were I live, and have a family of two, and take home after tax 20k, you'll have 8k a year or there about, to pay for food, bills, council tax, clothing, transport etc. Which means there are probably two of you working full time, to break even at best. If we're talking about the morality of working, we must first look at the morality of employment. Morality is a two way street.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 26 Apr 16 1.02pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
That's a moral issue, though. I agree to an extent, as I've never really been unemployed. But the reality is that many of those jobs pay s**t wages. Certainly if your single, living at home and not in education there is no excuse not to work. But I very much doubt anyone could actually work minimum or low wage jobs in the SE and raise a family, and would be struggling if both parents worked. So why bother working if there is no actual benefit from working (for many working would reduce their standard of living, and for most of the unemployed that isn't exactly great to start with). If you live were I live, and have a family of two, and take home after tax 20k, you'll have 8k a year or there about, to pay for food, bills, council tax, clothing, transport etc. Which means there are probably two of you working full time, to break even at best. If we're talking about the morality of working, we must first look at the morality of employment. Morality is a two way street. Great post. An economic model where 2 full time employed adults still need the state to pay them more money on top just to reach a minimum standard of living and be able to afford to rent a mediocre property is not a model that's defensible. The injustice is compounded when you see those rental and taxpayer-funded housing benefit payments often going straight into the pockets of buy-to-letters and already wealthy landlords, who then perpetuate the cycle by buying up more property to extract rental income from.
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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npn Crowborough 26 Apr 16 1.13pm | |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
Great post. An economic model where 2 full time employed adults still need the state to pay them more money on top just to reach a minimum standard of living and be able to afford to rent a mediocre property is not a model that's defensible. The injustice is compounded when you see those rental and taxpayer-funded housing benefit payments often going straight into the pockets of buy-to-letters and already wealthy landlords, who then perpetuate the cycle by buying up more property to extract rental income from. Council housing, and lots of it! Problem solved (but, of course, governments of all hues have been plundering that particular pot for years, and it's now pretty much empty). Build more, now, and legislate to ensure it stays in government hands in perpetuity. Jobs for builders, low cost housing, private rental market controlled by increased competition, win-win
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jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Apr 16 1.18pm | |
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Originally posted by npn
Council housing, and lots of it! Problem solved (but, of course, governments of all hues have been plundering that particular pot for years, and it's now pretty much empty). Build more, now, and legislate to ensure it stays in government hands in perpetuity. Jobs for builders, low cost housing, private rental market controlled by increased competition, win-win Probably bad news for people who bought to rent, given that an increase in council housing would see a drop in demand for property would drop, along with rents, likely trapping them with negative equity on their mortgages. But f**k it, that's the risk with investments, they don't always work out.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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johnfirewall 26 Apr 16 1.20pm | |
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Originally posted by npn
Council housing, and lots of it! Problem solved (but, of course, governments of all hues have been plundering that particular pot for years, and it's now pretty much empty). Build more, now, and legislate to ensure it stays in government hands in perpetuity. Jobs for builders, low cost housing, private rental market controlled by increased competition, win-win Why would self-serving councils bother if they can just get someone else, to build, maintain, and administrate, while taking the tax?
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fed up eagle Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 26 Apr 16 2.07pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
That's a moral issue, though. I agree to an extent, as I've never really been unemployed. But the reality is that many of those jobs pay s**t wages. Certainly if your single, living at home and not in education there is no excuse not to work. But I very much doubt anyone could actually work minimum or low wage jobs in the SE and raise a family, and would be struggling if both parents worked. So why bother working if there is no actual benefit from working (for many working would reduce their standard of living, and for most of the unemployed that isn't exactly great to start with). If you live were I live, and have a family of two, and take home after tax 20k, you'll have 8k a year or there about, to pay for food, bills, council tax, clothing, transport etc. Which means there are probably two of you working full time, to break even at best. If we're talking about the morality of working, we must first look at the morality of employment. Morality is a two way street. I do agree that the cost of living, especially in the South East is just disgusting. My Mrs is from the North West and she can't believe property prices where we currently live (Horley). You can get a four bedroom property for around £370,000 in some areas where she's from. It wouldn't buy you a three bedroom property round here.
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Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 26 Apr 16 8.24pm | |
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Originally posted by npn
Council housing, and lots of it! Problem solved (but, of course, governments of all hues have been plundering that particular pot for years, and it's now pretty much empty). Build more, now, and legislate to ensure it stays in government hands in perpetuity. Jobs for builders, low cost housing, private rental market controlled by increased competition, win-win 100% agree. Works for the masses and for benefit of the economy as a whole. I'd vote for it.
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 26 Apr 16 8.31pm | |
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Why should anyone be entitled to state-subsidised housing, when the rest of us have to pay market rents or pay the going rate on a mortgage?
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Kermit8 Hevon 26 Apr 16 8.48pm | |
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Originally posted by Cucking Funt
Why should anyone be entitled to state-subsidised housing, when the rest of us have to pay market rents or pay the going rate on a mortgage? Millions of full time employees with kids, and some without, on low wages - £13-18k-ish - a year should be entitled to some help for housing as should those whose circumstances dictate that they genuinely need assistance too. They've ended up in the lesser salaried positions but that shouldn't mean they are there for the p1ss-taking. If there were to be a massive council house building programme I don't think many would begrudge those folk an affordable home rather than them lining the pockets of the already affluent. Those on 40k-70k+ could afford a tax tenner a week -that's 3 Cafe Nero coffees in The City - to help get such a scheme off to a start. A healthy and positive slight re-distribution of wealth and a better run housing policy to boot. What's not to like? Edited by Kermit8 (26 Apr 2016 8.52pm)
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